Transforming Retail Media into a Growth Engine
S5E1 Unleashing Retail Media's Potential: A Conversation with Drew Cashmore
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Retail Media's Strategic Evolution: Insights from Drew Cashmore
Welcome to Season Five of the Retail Razor Show! This season opener dives deep into transforming retail media networks into growth engines for retailers, featuring an insightful conversation with Drew Cashmore, a pioneer in the field who has helped shape the retail media landscape at companies like Walmart and now, Vantage.
Drew Cashmore is a retail media strategist and thought leader with a background in building, commercializing and scaling new business models in the retail sector across the globe.
Drew was an original architect of and former executive at Walmart Connect in the U.S. and Canada, helping to scale the retail media business to $2BN and beyond. In addition, Drew was a founding member of Walmart eCommerce and the CMO of SoftBank-backed Live Shopping platform, Firework. Now heading up strategy for Vantage - the platform that powers self-serve and managed-service for The Home Depot among other retailers - Drew is helping to architect the next generation of unified retail media technologies.
A New Era for Retail Media
In this episode, hosts Ricardo Belmar and Casey Golden, explore the strategic shifts powering retail media's evolution. Drew’s experience spanning over 15 years, provides a firsthand account of how retail media has grown from a nascent concept into a powerful growth engine for retailers.
Drew shares his journey from spearheading Walmart's retail media business to becoming the Chief Strategy Officer at Vantage, where his focus is on connecting disparate systems to create a cohesive retail media orchestration layer. His insights are invaluable for anyone looking to understand the dynamic forces reshaping retail media today!
The Evolution and Challenges of Retail Media
Retail media is rapidly evolving, driven by advertisers seeking safer, more reliable platforms for their marketing dollars amid digital advertising’s growing complexities. According to Drew, the shift involves re-purposing existing shopper marketing and trade dollars into vibrant retail media networks. However, the challenge lies in creating differentiated, competitive platforms capable of standing against giants like Amazon and Walmart. The fact is, while the retail media network market is growing rapidly, the majority of those dollars, over 75%, are going first to Amazon, then (in a distant but growing second) to Walmart, leaving everyone else fighting for the small remainder.
For retailers, the pressing question is how to navigate this transformation effectively to capture as much as possible of that remaining piece of market share. Drew emphasizes the need for investment in competitive media offerings, cautioning that without proper resources and technology, many retailers could fall behind in the retail media race. Amazon and Walmart are both investing in their networks and pushing the market forward, all but requiring other retailers to keep pace or fail to gain any market share.
Understanding ROI and Measurement
One of the most captivating topics discussed is measuring the return on investment for retail media. While presence at the point of purchase is critical, Drew highlights that direct ROI may not always be the main driver.
Instead, the opportunity to capture consumer attention and the inherent value of being at the decision-making point can outweigh traditional ROI metrics.
This perspective challenges brands to rethink how they collaborate with retailers to maximize impact!
The Future of Retail Media
The discussion also ventures into the future of retail media, examining the potential for growth and the hurdles that remain. Drew discusses the importance of workflow automation in creating operational efficiencies, which can provide a competitive edge in this space.
However, he warns that the emphasis should not solely be on expanding inventory like CTV and in-store media but also on creating scalable, unified solutions that simplify the advertising process.
Traditionally, retailers think of opening new stores as a way to increase revenue, but adding new channels to their retail media networks does not automatically result in more dollars spent by brands! Each new channel requires more integration of technology and more measurement to bring value for brands, and that increases the complexity and challenge for the retailer.
First-Party Data and Consumer Privacy
You can’t have a retail media discussion without talking about first-party data! While it's often regarded as a gold mine, Drew points out the challenges retailers face in accessing and utilizing this data effectively. The discussion touches upon the balance needed to maintain consumer privacy while still enabling retailers to offer value-driven advertising solutions.
…and there’s so much more…
This episode of The Retail Razor Show is a must-listen for anyone involved in retail or commerce media. As the industry stands on the cusp of transformational change, understanding both the opportunities and challenges is vital.
Drew Cashmore's insights offer a roadmap for navigating this transformation, emphasizing the importance of
investment,
differentiation, and
operational efficiency
in retail media.
Packed with valuable insights, don't miss out on this must-listen episode for product junkies, commerce technologists, retail leaders, and everyone in retail tech and media! Plus, get a few sneak peeks at the Retail Razor Podcast Network's exciting new shows!
Until next time, keep cutting through the clutter and stay sharp!
Sincerely,
Ricardo Belmar & Casey Golden
Co-hosts of The Retail Razor Show
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Follow along with a full episode transcript available below:
Full Episode Transcript
S5E1 Transforming Retail Media into a Growth Engine
[00:00:00] Show Intro
[00:00:20] Ricardo Belmar: Hello, and welcome to the first episode of Season Five of the Retail Razor Show, one of many podcasts in the growing Retail Razor Podcast network, where we bring you the practical knowledge you need to stay ahead in the retail world.
I'm Ricardo Belmar.
[00:00:34] Casey Golden: And I am Casey Golden.
Welcome to the Retail Razor fans and followers to retail's favorite podcast where we cut through the clutter to give you sharp insights on what's happening on retail today, and tomorrow.
It's the show for product junkies, commerce technologists, retail leaders, and everyone else in retail and retail tech alike.
[00:00:53] Ricardo Belmar: Now that lead in just really brings a smile to your face, doesn't it?
[00:00:56] Casey Golden: Ah, it does,
[00:00:58] Ricardo Belmar: So here we are. We have made it to [00:01:00] season five of the show.
[00:01:02] Casey Golden: yes, and it's not our only show anymore either. Is it, Ricardo?
[00:01:05] Ricardo Belmar: That is true. I see you caught my little blurb at the start about the Retail Razor Podcast Network. Just kind of slipped that one in there just so discreetly.
[00:01:13] Casey Golden: I don't think there was anything discrete about that. You can't just casually drop that mention right at the start of the podcast without at least giving our listeners a little bit more details. I mean, come on now, Ricardo.
[00:01:30] Ricardo Belmar: All right, you got me there. Okay. So for those listeners, new to the show. To this show at least, and a, a special welcome to you of course, but long time listeners probably already be talking into their phones or laptops or wherever they're playing this right now.
[00:01:43] Casey Golden: Or on their TVs, right? They could be watching us right now on YouTube, on their big screen TV. Didn't I hear the recent stats that YouTube is the world's new number one podcast destination?
[00:01:58] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:01:58] Casey Golden: and we've also [00:02:00] heard that more YouTube videos are now watched through the TV YouTube app.
[00:02:05] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm.
[00:02:05] Casey Golden: than our iPhones and smartphones.
[00:02:08] Ricardo Belmar: that's true. I I read that too. So, yeah, so fans could actually be watching us right now on their big screen TV, larger than life. So I'll, I'll just let you ponder that one for a minute, Casey. Think about it. Right now, those viewers, they're, they're basically watching king size versions of us talk all about retail to them from their TVs.
So it's a good thing we're, we're naturally, as always, looking our best for this recording right now. No getting away with saying we have a face for radio anymore.
[00:02:32] Casey Golden: Oh, it's like my worst nightmare, but I'm here for it. So, while my insecurities get set aside for the next 15 minutes. tell me more about the podcast network.
[00:02:50] Ricardo Belmar: Right. Yes. So as loyal fans know, last season and last year, we launched the Retail Razor Podcast Network with our first spinoff show, the Retail Razor Blade to Greatness.
[00:02:59] Casey Golden: [00:03:00] Yes. Our first spinoff, though, wouldn't you call that like our second show, first spinoff, second show somehow just doesn't quite sound right.
[00:03:09] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Okay. I guess there's a technicality there. Yeah, sure. Our second show, yes, it was first spinoff, second show. We'll have to pick one of those.
So Blade to Greatness, where we focus on retail leadership skills with the most amazing and knowledgeable experts in the field of leadership and career coaching in retail.
We wrapped up season one, that show in early December, and we'll have season two coming soon, this spring, for that.
[00:03:32] Casey Golden: It's super exciting. We launched our third show this year. The second spinoff show, Retail Razor Data Blades, and I'm such a huge fan of this one. Um, I love customer data.
[00:03:44] Ricardo Belmar: That's true. You, you absolutely do. And we could talk all day about how critical a customer data platform is. Right? That's a topic for another episode before we jump into that one.
[00:03:55] Casey Golden: Well, I'm always looking forward to the conversation.
[00:03:57] Ricardo Belmar: Without a doubt. So we did [00:04:00] also wrap up season one of RetailRazor Data Blades just last month in fact. And yes, we are gonna be bringing out season two later this year, hopefully later this spring. So if you haven't listened to, or watched, on the YouTube channel, either of these new shows yet, then go get on that right now and go kick off some serious binge watching, uh, or binge listening if you're not watching this on YouTube.
Right, right after you finish this episode to get yourself caught up on all things Retail Razor Show.
[00:04:26] Casey Golden: And the best thing, well, okay, not the best thing, but one of the best things about both of these shows, Blades to Greatness and Data Blades, is that each episode is a nice and tightly squeezed, snippet
[00:04:41] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm.
[00:04:43] Casey Golden: for your enjoyment. With most being 10, 15 minutes or less, just the occasional longer episode when the topic topic is like particular juicy.
[00:04:52] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. In fact, I think there's maybe only one or two episodes that went over 15 minutes but they were definitely worth it with those topics.
[00:04:59] Casey Golden: Absolutely. [00:05:00] So now everyone is up to speed and clear on all the new shows. There's no excuse. so get out there and, and, and enjoy. Share. Give us your feedback. Hopefully you'll learn something from those podcasts. I know we did.
[00:05:14] Ricardo Belmar: That's right, that's right. And actually just now as you're describing them, I think I learned how to correlate new action words to describe our podcast, like squeezing and juicing. That was pretty impressive Casey. I'm gonna have to remember how to use that next time.
[00:05:25] Casey Golden: Oh boy. I need to take your Canva account away from you.
[00:05:30] Ricardo Belmar: You're gonna make me promise not to have like or oranges being squeezed in the next cover art, right?
[00:05:35] Casey Golden: Yes. Oh, well. Let's also remind everyone that if you're using Apple Podcasts, you can now find the Retail Razor Channel in the list of podcasts and subscribe to all of our shows conveniently, right there, it's where you'll find me,
[00:05:51] Ricardo Belmar: That's right. You might even say you can conveniently find them all in one basket ready to help get all those retail juices flowing.
[00:05:57] Casey Golden: okay, fine.[00:06:00]
[00:06:00] Ricardo Belmar: I had to work that in there.
[00:06:02] Casey Golden: Let's talk about episode instead.
[00:06:04] Ricardo Belmar: Okay, let's talk about this episode instead. Well, this is one of my favorites, to kick off the new season, no doubt. And to mark that kickoff, we are gonna be talking about retail media with an amazing guest today. Someone who's been right there since the early days of retail media. In fact, he was one of the original architects of Walmart Connect in the US and Canada.
Where he quickly scaled that business to $2 billion and beyond. And that included insourcing the business, establishing the brand and sales enablement practices, leading internal change management, developing the in-store advertising strategy. I mean, all these different things you might not think of that you need when you're starting what is essentially a pure media business inside of a major retailer.
[00:06:47] Casey Golden: And he was also the founding member of Walmart's e-commerce and digital marketing platforms. And of course, as many also know him, he was the CMO of one of our favorite video [00:07:00] commerce platforms, Firework.
[00:07:02] Ricardo Belmar: that's right. And today he's the Chief Strategy Officer at Vantage, the leading orchestration layer for retail and commerce media. So is the suspense just killing you now after we've built this up so much. Isn't it exciting?
[00:07:13] Casey Golden: Of course, a thousand percent. So we're talking about Drew Cashmore. Drew is our guest today, and I can't wait to get this conversation started. So what do you say we just jump in.
[00:07:25] Ricardo Belmar: Let's do it. Here's our conversation on the evolution of retail media, where the future lies with a real retail media champion and just all around retail media superstar, Drew Cashmore.
[00:07:38] Unleashing Retail Media's Potential: A Conversation with Drew Cashmore
[00:07:43] Ricardo Belmar: Welcome to the Retail Razor Show, Drew! We are so incredibly excited to have you here with us today.
[00:07:49] Drew Cashmore: Thank you for having me.
[00:07:50] Casey Golden: This really is a thrill to have you, Drew. Obviously, retail media is such a hot topic on our show and it's a dominating conversation in retail right [00:08:00] now. It's just growing like crazy, but all rapidly growing tech-based solutions in retail. It's got its ups and its downs, strengths and not so strong aspects.
[00:08:10] Ricardo Belmar: Which we have talked about on the show before, too. Particularly areas like measurement around performance of retail media. We've touched on challenges that retailers have an implementation, especially adding in, in-store capability. But I, I know one of the areas I'm looking forward to talking about with you today around those challenges is, you know, your, your background and how you get retail media off the ground successfully. Making it a growth engine for retail and really jump into this turning point we we're in, and you've said this many times, we, we've seen you talk about this. So I think we should just jump right in. What do you think Casey?
[00:08:43] Drew's Background in Retail Media
[00:08:43] Casey Golden: Yeah, Drew, kick us off with a little bit about you and your background.
[00:08:46] Drew Cashmore: I like it. So first of all, thank you again for having me. I've listened to this show for a long time and, and I really appreciate what both of you're doing here. I have been in the retail media space for a long time now, so over, over 15 years. I started at [00:09:00] Walmart in this regard in, in 2009 to build a small advertising business in the Canadian market to offset the cost of e-commerce.
So treated purely as a profit center and, and funding the overall e-commerce team scaled that to be what was at the time the largest RMN in the Canadian market. And then, the US team was contemplating what to do with their reasonably nascent installed retail media business there. And so I was part of that, brought down as part of the initial leadership team to San Francisco, and was responsible for building what became as four and a half billion dollars retail media business in, in Walmart Connect. And so led that for, or, or was part of that team for a, a fair amount of years. Moved on to be the CMO of a live shopping platform which played on the periphery of retail media. And today I sit in in a company called Vantage, which is an orchestration layer for retail media connecting a bunch of disparate tools and systems [00:10:00] into a single unified workflow.
As well as functioning as a consultant around the world for retailers in, in terms of how do they grow and scale their retail media business. So, stayed very close to this space and, and very excited about where it goes from here.
[00:10:14] Casey Golden: Well, It's great. It's not like anybody's graduating with a degree in retail media right now, so,
[00:10:18] Drew Cashmore: Yes,
[00:10:18] Casey Golden: I think that might be part of why these podcasts on retail media do so well.
[00:10:23] Ricardo Belmar: That's right.
[00:10:23] Drew Cashmore: a lot of courses on it though.
[00:10:25] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[00:10:27] Casey Golden: Um, we are evolving.
[00:10:28] The Evolution and Challenges of Retail Media
[00:10:28] Casey Golden: So Drew, it's safe to say like retail media is evolving rapidly. What do you see as the biggest driving forces behind this shift?
You know, why do you believe the next two years will potentially be a turning point for the industry?
[00:10:42] Drew Cashmore: I, it's a couple things. One is that you are seeing a significant amount of waste and fraud in overall digital marketing. And, and so there's certainly a a change in the way in which dollars [00:11:00] are flowing through digital marketing in totality. And, and, and frankly, advertisers are looking for a new and, and safer home.
And so, monies are moving into retailers because that place is, is much more consistent than I think some of the rest of the internet. And the other piece of this, and I think this is probably more important at a macro level, there is a lot of money that is already sitting in retail by way of advertising in, in shopper marketing and and trade marketing.
And those monies are simply transitioning into what is retail media. And so what looks like. At an individual retailer level, what looks like astronomical growth in advertising dollars into an RMN is often just a lift and shift of other dollars that are already sitting in the retailer. And, and being repurposed for this, this new either digital or kinda new technology platform.
And, and I think that if. If I look at what is gonna help it grow in the [00:12:00] future is investing in differentiation and investing in competitive a competitive platform that is gonna stand you up not only against other retailers, but against the, the behemoths like Walmart and Amazon and against other players in the space like Google and Meta, which are, highly sophisticated.
[00:12:17] Ricardo Belmar: Is the majority of that shift coming from the shopper marketing dollars, Drew, or is it coming from other, or, I guess maybe the question is how much of it is really coming from that shopper marketing budget versus other advertising mediums? Is there a shift from, is it linear TV dollars that are, that brands are bringing over into this?
Is it other internet advertising spend that's shifting to the RMNs? Is it really all of the above? And where, where do you think the kind of the distribution is coming from?
[00:12:44] Drew Cashmore: If you zoom out at a macro level, you've got a consensus of growth to about a hundred, 110 billion. If you strip out Amazon and Walmart, that looks more like. 15 to 20 billion. And if you spread that across all of retail, you're looking at maybe [00:13:00] 20 to 50 million per individual retailer. So there isn't a ton of monies that are going into anyone but Amazon and Walmart and, and a few of the other large players today.
And so that's to say that if the smaller retailers or the more nascent retail media businesses are capturing dollars, I do believe that most of this is, just a shift in shopper. And then the, the monies that have been placed in traditional media locations like linear TV or even print are going into comparable solutions at Amazon and, and Walmart and whatnot.
And so I think we're not seeing a ton of incremental dollars that are flowing into the more nascent retail media business or the smaller RMNs. Those, those monies are a shift internally and, and I should say the retailer doesn't often see those dollars. So in early stages, a lot of these shopper efforts were outsourced or are outsourced to third parties.
And, and you see activations in store and, and [00:14:00] in and around the retailer that are powered entirely out of the control or visibility of a retailer. And so it does look like it's net new dollars, but it was always surrounding that retailer in some capacity.
[00:14:12] Ricardo Belmar: Uhhuh. So, so at least some, in some indirect way was still impacting them and, and getting there. Yeah. Interesting, interesting.
[00:14:18] ROI and Measurement in Retail Media
[00:14:18] Ricardo Belmar: So one of the areas we've been talking about more on the show around retail media is, is the whole question around ROI, are brands, obviously, retailers want them to invest more in the retail media and across from all these different areas and shifts that you're were just describing, but are they really seeing a return right now or were we at that point where the ROI is I wanna say both measurable and somewhat obvious to the brand that it's there and, and if not, what, where's that disconnect coming from, between the promise of what they should be able to get from advertising in retail media, versus the actual performance?
And, and maybe it's, I'm sure it's a different perspective both from brands versus the retailers.
[00:14:55] Drew Cashmore: I think as a baseline, it's important to go back to [00:15:00] where this all started, which is presence of point of purchase. And so in the infancy of investment within retail. And Casey, this goes back to something we were talking about earlier. Brands need to be present. Brands need to be at the place where people are reaching for their wallets or reaching on the shelf to to buy a product.
And if you're not doing that, your competitors are. And so at a, at a, in the infancy and, and, and in the, the way in which we should think about retail media to start, just be present when people are actually making a purchase. I, I, I it's not to say that I think measurement is not important, and certainly it's something that we need to evaluate at a, at a more macro level against all of our other media investments.
But retail media has I think two core purposes. One is growth and, and, and measurable growth. And two is being where your customers are. And so I I, I'm not really directly answering your question [00:16:00] but I, I don't know if it truly matters because if you're not there, somebody else is there and you're investing millions, hundreds of millions of dollars in the open market driving people to a place to purchase and not present.
[00:16:11] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm.
[00:16:11] Casey Golden: Is there a bench? Sorry, Ricardo.
[00:16:13] Ricardo Belmar: I was just thinking it's more, more like the opportunity is what you're saying is almost more valuable than that direct ROI.
[00:16:19] Drew Cashmore: Agreed,
[00:16:20] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm.
[00:16:20] Casey Golden: is there a benchmark? That's essentially retailers or brands are chasing like three x six x.
[00:16:27] Drew Cashmore: no.
[00:16:27] Casey Golden: know how we typically would measure like a ROAS? Are we at the same type of benchmarks?
[00:16:34] Drew Cashmore: You are seeing dollars flow into the big players because they are showing real return. And so I, I don't wanna discount that, that a lot of the, the major investments are flowing into places where brands can definitively say this thing is working. I think benchmarking is really, really challenging for our space right now because the way in which we attribute, the, you know, the timing of the campaign and the way in [00:17:00] which we attribute value to the campaign. Those are all different by retailer. There's efforts obviously towards measurement, standardization but that also requires a level of sophistication within the retailer to be able to build for those standardized measurement capabilities.
And, and we're not frankly there yet. The other piece that I, I spend a lot of time considering in this is that the macro media models that look at MTA and MMS that are predicated on reach and frequency for, for frankly the lowest cost, do not match up with the way in which retail media is bought, higher cost, more targeted reach.
And so if you look at retail media relative to all of your other activity in, in the open web and on TV and whatnot, it looks like the stuff you're doing outside of retail performs much better than the stuff that you're doing in retail. And it's really hard to, to create a benchmark [00:18:00] across all of your media in that.
[00:18:01] Casey Golden: Perfect. Everybody can update their decks!
[00:18:04] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, well, it's so, so it's kind of like, so almost like hitting a little bit of a ceiling from the retailer's perspective in, in terms of capability you can offer to the brands for that. So. How is that impacting, the overall business model for this? I mean, it, it would seem that a retail at different stages in their evolution, right?
And growth of retail media is gonna hit different challenges in, in that sense. So is there, do, do you see like a, next model that's going to improve or change or, or be something that some of these RMNs pivot to, to get around these issues?
[00:18:34] The Future of Retail Media
[00:18:34] Drew Cashmore: I, I talk about this great stall in the retail media space that is. The, the behemoths in the space have accelerated so much and are able to invest so much more in their platforms and, and the, the tools in which they help advertisers spend money that everybody else is falling further and further behind.
And so the monies that are flowing into this space that are net new are either going [00:19:00] to the top or not entering the space at all. And as a result, you're seeing a lot of retailers just simply not growing or growing less than the market. And that is a challenge for more nascent players and, and all the way up to mid stage RMNs that have been in the market for a long time.
I think this goes back to what, what Amazon and Walmart and Instacart did really, really well, which was invest in their business. And, and this is something that, that we talk about a lot now in this space is if you want to create a competitive media offering. You need to pay for it. These are not free dollars that are gonna flow into individual retailers if you don't have the right solutions.
We need to make it easier and more appealing for advertisers to buy at a retail level, and we need to make it easier for the retailers to operate. And to get there it requires technology, it requires resources and it [00:20:00] requires continuously investing in, in your overall growth and B2B marketing and so on.
And that's frankly not what we're seeing across the board.
[00:20:09] Casey Golden: Everybody wants a magic wand, right?
[00:20:11] Ricardo Belmar: Of course, of course.
[00:20:13] Drew Cashmore: Yeah,
[00:20:14] Casey Golden: The internet is magic. I think that's like a constant, constant struggle, right? It is not magic. It takes a lot of money and a lot of resources and, and strategy on, on being able to narrow down. Where you wanna focus your efforts and energy. And nothing is magic. It's not gonna
[00:20:29] Ricardo Belmar: not a quick fix.
[00:20:30] Casey Golden: It's not a quick fix.
[00:20:31] Drew Cashmore: Well, and, and you two spend a lot more time in, in the overall retail space. Are you seeing this as a challenge across all individual business functions within a retailer, or is it really just focused on these tertiary components like retail media?
[00:20:47] Ricardo Belmar: I, I, I see it in a lot of places. And it really comes down to, there's always multiple pain points, right? And multiple challenges. I don't think any, any retailer is lucky enough to say, Nope, we just have this one challenge that we gotta solve. And then everything is perfect. I, I [00:21:00] don't think that e exists, so it's always a function of, well, what do I prioritize?
What challenge am I gonna solve first, second, and third? And that's where the inve, the dollars flow, right? The dollars go to whatever I think is the biggest pain point. I think depending on at a macro level what's going on, you, I find retailers will say, well, I haven't invested enough in my supply chain yet, so I need to do something there to protect the business.
And to, and to gain an advantage. So that might be first. And there are others who, maybe it's the, there's CMO looks set up from a marketing perspective and says, okay, where am I going to find, where can I, stimulate more growth? By either expanding the customer base, finding a new target segment to go after.
Do I need to, and maybe the answer becomes, I need personalization. Or maybe that's where the answer is. You know, we have, we don't have a retail media network and we have all these different products we sell. That could be a, a growth spot, and then some investment gets directed in, in that. Or it could be that, someone says, our store operations aren't where they need to be. We need to do some improvement there before we go, after these [00:22:00] other growth issues. So I, I see a lot of variation just depending on where we're, where a given retailer's at.
[00:22:06] Casey Golden: I get my conversations get a lot of, huh? Like we're at beginning stages. It's matured a certain point, but, I just, I work with a sector of the, of the retail industry that doesn't deal with Amazon or Walmart.
[00:22:21] Drew Cashmore: Right
[00:22:22] Casey Golden: And so
[00:22:23] Drew Cashmore: and doesn't see it as a competitive threat or...
[00:22:25] Casey Golden: They don't sell there and like their customer may not be there.
So, you know, there's, there's a whole group of retail that are anti Amazon.
[00:22:33] Drew Cashmore: Yeah.
[00:22:34] Casey Golden: So these conversations are just a little bit more newer where RMNs are more sophisticated, and so they're coming onto a more sophisticated app and they're trying to play catch up. Like, wait a minute.
What, what are we doing now?
[00:22:48] Drew Cashmore: What what seems to be true is that the strongest RMNs have turned this into an overall flywheel generator
[00:22:57] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:57] Drew Cashmore: and, and the, the space. You know, [00:23:00] certainly in the infancy of any RMN, the focus is on driving highly profitable dollars into the business and and growing operating income. As they mature or as they go through their phases of growth, they realize that in order for them to continue to scale, they need to create mutually beneficial value for the advertisers or, or their suppliers, themselves and their customers.
And so when you create, when you can treat retail media as something that is actually driving overall business growth and growth for your advertisers, that's when it becomes truly successful and scalable. And I think, back to your question on, on what happens over the next two years. We're at a stage now where there's such a, a, a gap between the top and, and the mid and bottom that if you're not figuring out how to get to a competitive place in the next two years, you're likely not gonna be able to play in this space in two years.
And so we really [00:24:00] wanna focus on getting the market to a place where there's some strong 10 through 30th players that can truly compete.
[00:24:08] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[00:24:09] Casey Golden: we need some flywheels
[00:24:10] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah. So that makes me think of a, a different maybe a different question. So in, in a lot of other types of markets, and you get so much of these new players popping up. Eventually there's consolidation, right? Where, where there's just, there, there are too many. The market can't sustain that many.
And, and, but in this case though, it really, it seems like that would be hard to do because every RMN is truly a standalone entity within a, the walls of a, of a given retailer. So you, you've got your two behemoths, right? Amazon and Walmart and, and then everybody else catching up in a sense, and, and any new ones that come in.
Is that something you think could happen in this space? Could we see RMNs banding together, and, and to try to get more, more more strength that way.
[00:24:57] Drew Cashmore: I think there's complimentary [00:25:00] RMNs that could work together. If I, where the space is seeing consolidation right now is in, in creating these marketplaces or networks and. I don't think that's the play. I think e exactly. To your point, individual retailers are so nuanced and have such bespoke expectations of their experience with their customers, of what happens in their business of the growth that they're seeing and or their expecting.
And, and when you just push your inventory and you push your data into a marketplace. It's simply not driving the growth or value that retailers are are expecting. And what I've seen across the board is retailers seeding their inventory and seeding their data to marketplaces, and then within two, three months changing paths because it just doesn't work for them. And then back to your other point, like even at an individual retailer level that is, is part of a bunch of separate [00:26:00] banners, even those, there's a unique subset within that that, that requires uniqueness across the board. So yes, I don't think marketplace is the answer, but I do think you've got complimentary retailers like a hardware store and a airline and a travel company that can come together and create mutually beneficial value, so long as they are willing to allow someone else to capture some of the monies that, that are flowing in from the sale.
[00:26:31] Casey Golden: Yeah, no, I, I think finding these intersections and interesting intersections, I think is is key. And we learn so much more about our customers. And that kind of brings us to first party data.
[00:26:41] First-Party Data and Consumer Privacy
[00:26:41] Casey Golden: It's often described as the gold mine, right? But is it really, you know. I have my own thoughts. Ricardo has his own thoughts.
We're probably on opposite sides of this. How should brands be leveraging it beyond just handing it over to a trade desk?
[00:26:59] Drew Cashmore: I [00:27:00] wanna be biased by your thoughts now. Okay, I'll go first and then
[00:27:02] Ricardo Belmar: go first.
[00:27:03] Drew Cashmore: you because I, I'm, I'm very interested in this conversation. I think it is, it is misused or misunderstood, first party data, and, and what seems to be true is that every retailer has diff varying levels of access to their own data.
And the other thing is that the, there, there are places you can go in the market today that give you the majority of the population. So if as a baseline you are working to reach a specific audience, you can do that at scale with certain retailers, and therefore you don't necessarily need to go to a, to a smaller subset.
What I, I believe to be true. And what seems to be true in, in, in the space overall is that advertisers are looking for more control over access to that data. And so they're expecting retailers to open up the pipes and allow them to merge [00:28:00] their psychographic and, and demographic data with the retailer transactional data and, and create some type of new sophisticated approach to reaching consumers.
That doesn't necessarily work.
And I think it's it's placing an old medium mindset on this new area that is much closer to point of purchase and much closer to understanding what truly happens as a result of your ads. There's a, a, a gentleman named Paul Lentz at CVS. I, I was with him a couple days ago on, on this Digiday Media Buying Summit, and he said that one of the things that we're really, really good at is deterministically predicting how people are gonna buy. And then reaching those consumers in the places that matters most, that has the highest impact on their overall propensity to buy. And frankly, I don't think anyone but a retailer can [00:29:00] do that today.
[00:29:01] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:01] Drew Cashmore: At scale.
[00:29:02] Casey Golden: Yeah, well, I, I believe first party data is private. Nobody should have access to it. The customer owns their data, they should be able to take it wherever they want, use it, full data interoperability. So I'm way over on this side. But yeah, it's it's very interesting.
It's going to be very interesting to also see how consumers, as they become more and more aware of how their data is used and their first party data is used how they feel about it. Because I don't think we're, I don't think we're, we're, we're there yet.
Industry's still trying to figure it out and really define a lot of these things. I don't think it's necessarily made it down to the customer level. I think last year, the general consumer, now knows what Shopify is versus Spotify, right? I mean, we all
[00:29:50] Drew Cashmore: then you're gonna get to this individual consumer RMNs. Is every single person gonna be monetizing their, themselves?
[00:29:57] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:29:59] Casey Golden: what's, you [00:30:00] know, what's better than cash,
[00:30:01] Drew Cashmore: Fair.
[00:30:02] Casey Golden: you know? I think the more. The more consumers monetize their data, the cheaper data ends up being and we get like a check for like $3 and 97 cents. Well somebody else made a billion, so, so, you know, nobody's sending me a Ferrari for using my data. But if they'd like to, I'd
[00:30:21] Ricardo Belmar: If only they did. If only they did.
[00:30:23] Casey Golden: Yes.
[00:30:24] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah. It's a, I think it's a tough one because you're right, I think consumers are getting more and more educated on what it means to make your data accessible and available to others. And when you do that, what does that mean those other people get to do with your data?
So I, I think it does get more challenging both on the, the retailer side, the brand side, on, on how do you access this gold mine of knowledge about who my potential buyer may be and how can I make myself more appealing to that buyer versus my competitor? So, so I do think I, I agree. I don't think we're quite there where we need to be.
I think maybe where we're getting [00:31:00] with RMNs is approaching a level where we can be a little bit more precise. Potentially without actually giving away all those details to the individual level. Right. What I do find is really interesting that I don't, we haven't quite gotten into, but I, I kind of wanna lead us there a little bit, is when you start to think of, in-store media placement and when we start to get into, other areas like, connected TV and how RMNs are, are connecting with that, and these other partner networks and things, and how all of that data sharing starts to paint a bigger picture about who the consumers are. Not necessarily down to an individual level, but certainly the possibility is there.
So I think, questions from the technology point of view of how does the technology make it so that Casey's comfortable, that her data's not being a hundred percent identified down to an infinitesimal level to every brand that wants to know who Casey is so they can market to her.
But yet still allows either the retailer to go to a brand and say. Hey, we can tell you a lot about this [00:32:00] cohort, for example, or about this segment that we know is your target market. Where's, where's that happy medium, and where do all these other, things like non-endemic advertisers which, for in-store advertising, I, I think that's where a lot of retailer networks want to go because they want to open up the pool to a broader base of potential advertisers. And then all these partner network connections, we've seen with the streaming TV providers, with with connected TVs. Walmart buying Vizio, for example, I think is a great, great example of that.
What does all of that mean to us in, in this context of first party data?
[00:32:31] Casey Golden: Yeah, I'm very excited about CTV. Very
[00:32:35] Drew Cashmore: That was a lot.
[00:32:36] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, I know
[00:32:37] Casey Golden: Yeah. It's a lot!
[00:32:38] Ricardo Belmar: It is.
[00:32:39] Drew Cashmore: I, I want, I think we should talk about in-store. I think,
[00:32:41] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, let's talk about it in store,
[00:32:43] Drew Cashmore: No, no, no. Yeah. Well, so we should separate that though. But I, I believe CTV is an interesting conversation and I, I do think, Casey, this goes back to the concern on exactly on data utilization and, and how it's flowing. I think it's worth considering [00:33:00] that the media industry that is powered by advertising is trying to figure out how to clamp onto this new trend that is retail media. And I say trend, knowing that this thing is gonna continue to grow and evolve and, and more monies will flow into it, but it is accelerating so quickly that everybody is trying to take a piece of the, those budgets, especially in the case that those budgets are gonna leave traditional media vehicles and move into retail media, of which, you know, companies like CTV companies and linear television funded businesses are gonna potentially lose share.
And in that it's, it's worth considering that maybe they're not doing this the right way. Maybe it's not based on data, but it is simply based on maintaining access to the dollars that advertisers are paying.
In a more optimistic view, hopefully we can create an ecosystem from leveraging [00:34:00] retailer data that is much more deterministic and works harder.
And so we can, we can ensure that we're not just arbitrarily assigning value to individual demographics, but that we're using real transactional data anonymized and, and you know, consolidated, that is gonna make sure that the dollars that are going into advertising are actually gonna drive real results for advertisers.
And in doing so, you're seeing maybe a, a more, much more efficient buy that will, will help brands grow and, and help retailers grow and help create value for CTV companies and so on.
[00:34:39] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm. Yeah,
[00:34:41] Drew Cashmore: Did that really answer the question?
[00:34:43] Casey Golden: Part of
[00:34:43] Ricardo Belmar: part of it.
Yeah. Yeah. Well,
[00:34:45] Drew Cashmore: in store.
[00:34:47] In-Store Media and Workflow Automation
[00:34:47] Drew Cashmore: It, I in store is fascinating to me. And I, I
[00:34:51] Ricardo Belmar: It's really its own thing.
[00:34:53] Drew Cashmore: exactly. I spent a lot of time at this, at Walmart and when I when I took over the stores and, and, [00:35:00] and we were figuring out how do we rapidly accelerate investment in, in that area as a, as a tertiary component of, of our online advertising business. We had about 80 companies that were powering some type of ad experience in the stores. It could have been regional, it could have been someone just sliding a, a physical sign at, at shelf somewhere. And my. Key assumption was that if you could just consolidate that effort into five or six different companies, you could create much more control over it.
You could capture share of those budgets and, and you could make it much more efficient for advertisers to buy and retail media businesses, or Walmart specifically, to operate it. What I didn't realize was that that ecosystem is ingrained in the ways of working of core retail. And so those 80 companies may be selling ads at a retail [00:36:00] store in exchange for offering resources to the retailer to stock the shelves, as one example.
And so by just ripping out random companies that were selling ads at an individual retailer, you actually can disrupt the labor in those stores and, and, and disrupt the ability for brands to get products on shelf. So this, the point is that the point is this ecosystem is so ingrained in the ways of working of retail today.
The other thing that's worth noting on that point is that this exists at scale across all of retail. And so we are, coming in from a digital lens, which is frankly where most retail media leaders come from. You approach this in a, in efficiency, from an efficiency standpoint. You say, how do I put digital screens in the store and create a programmatic offering?
[00:36:53] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:54] Drew Cashmore: That's not in store, in store today. Physical signage and events and demos and, [00:37:00] and so if you can just simply take what exists today, optimize it in a way that makes it much more efficient to manage and then keep it running, that I think is the much smarter play than trying to create something that's net new in that environment.
[00:37:13] Casey Golden: Speaking of managing, a lot of these brands are managing like 10 to 15 platforms to run their retail media initiatives.
So multi, multimedia marketing is quite the handful, especially for a lot of brands that already have full plates. You know, nobody is bored in retail. Like we can, I think we can all agree with that.
How would you suggest brands to unify and streamline their approach that would make it more effective or efficient?
[00:37:42] Drew Cashmore: I would push it back to the retailers. It should be a brand expectation of the retailer. Vantage, did a survey with Digiday recently. And, what it said, something that I found so fascinating was that individual brands in [00:38:00] 2025 are going to double the amount of retail media businesses that they're advertising on. And so you're, you're growing from it, it looks like about six to 12 RMNs, and then, Casey, to your point. Within an individual RMN, you've actually got multiple ways to buy. And so, if you're an advertiser, not only are you buying on say, 12 retail media businesses, you're then going into five different tools at an individual retailer to do that.
The retailer, if they're operating on managed service support, they're likely using 10 different tools. To, to do that work and they're flowing information between systems in a manual, email based, spreadsheet based way that doesn't scale.
[00:38:48] Ricardo Belmar: Always a spreadsheet.
[00:38:50] Drew Cashmore: exactly. Yeah. What we did at, what we do at Vantage, and, and we did this with the Home Depot as an example, when we took over the Home Depot retail media business from a platform standpoint, [00:39:00] there were 10 different tools.
Vantage created a workflow, a, a unification layer on top of those tools, and drove connections into all of these different systems of record so that you could create automated workflow. Your teams would have a single tool to use to run the business end to end and that individual users within that tool had access to just their component of that overall business.
So streamline workflow, make it easier to manage the business. And then by doing that, by connecting a bunch of different buying tools, you can then offer self-serve solutions to advertisers in an omnichannel way. And I don't think we get to that place until you create this unification of tools. What's disappointing me right now in this space is that a lot of the time retailers are comfortable with this idea of making it hard for advertisers to buy.
And so, Casey, [00:40:00] going back to your point, I, I think this is, we need brands to really push this, that if you're gonna make it hard for me, unfortunately, I just can't participate.
[00:40:07] Ricardo Belmar: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It, does this come down to, in some ways, a almost a a, a training issue or, or just a general, I'll put it this way. It feels like part of what you're saying is on the retailer side, there's just a general lack of understanding how the media and advertising business works.
Maybe because you're asking teams to own the RMN who are folks who aren't coming from that ad space. And so they don't, so they have to learn a hundred percent of what's going on and, and they're just not at the beginning, probably out of necessity, right, because as they're being asked to build, solve something through technology and it's not just a tech problem.
[00:40:47] Drew Cashmore: Totally. We, and we talked about this before that, that there's, there's no school for this. There's no expert in this space yet. Um. Except ourselves. I think we can, [00:41:00] we can pat ourselves
[00:41:00] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.
[00:41:03] Drew Cashmore: Um, but I, I think that, that you're right. This is the challenge. Either you put someone that is already within the retail business into a new media role and expect them to know how to sell advertising to agencies and, and marketers and brand buyers. Or you take someone from a straight media space and put them into a retailer and expect them to understand the intricacies and nuances of retail. And both of those things don't work. So this is a, a, a new mindset, and this is a new type of role that hasn't truly existed yet that we need to figure out how to create,
[00:41:41] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:42] Drew Cashmore: on an ongoing basis. I think the, the other component of this that's worth noting is that retailers are, in an effort to not invest in the growth initially, that they're co-mingling resources internally. So the person that is [00:42:00] running creative for a retailer specifically and and running brand activations for that +retailer is now being asked to support creative development for the thousand brands that are advertising in the RMN. And it is a fundamentally different headspace and a and a lot of switching. And, and what we're seeing and what I've heard a lot from retailers that are not, or, or people within retail that are not in the RMN, is that retail media is taking a disproportionate amount of their time because they are forced to support a much larger scaled business than, than they're researched for.
[00:42:39] Casey Golden: Makes sense.
[00:42:40] Ricardo Belmar: sense. Yeah, it does.
[00:42:41] Casey Golden: I always suggest when people are outside of the retail industry and they're looking to hire, I always say, go to retail.
[00:42:49] Drew Cashmore: Yeah.
[00:42:50] Casey Golden: I don't trust the resume. These people are doing six jobs that are, that don't over, that have nothing to do with each other. They probably picked one job title, but they're probably [00:43:00] doing six different jobs.
It's such an opportunity to learn to take everywhere else. So I do think that this talent gap will be filled. Definitely will be filled because it is getting put on a lot of people that wouldn't necessarily have that opportunity. That may not have been something that was like a higher job that was searched out.
Somebody in the organization is getting that put on their desk. And so I think it's, I think it's a great opportunity. I think we're gonna have a lot of fun with this.
[00:43:32] Drew Cashmore: And to this point, and, and I, I put you two in this camp too. Retail is amazing. It is so intricate, nuanced, and, and, and there's so many sub components to it that you wouldn't consider getting. You know, shopping to all of America, being able to provide those type of services, be obsessively curious about it.
It is so, so interesting. How the world shops and, and I [00:44:00] think I I, the profile I look for in anyone in retail media space, and anyone in the retail space is someone that actually is genuinely curious about how things work.
[00:44:09] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[00:44:10] Casey Golden: Yep.
[00:44:11] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. This is one of those areas where I like to say the most important, you know, if I sum it down to one word that you're looking for someone to say, is "why."
[00:44:19] Drew Cashmore: Yeah.
[00:44:19] Ricardo Belmar: It, it's always the why question that may, that sparks this curiosity, moves this forward. In some ways we're saying like, when, when we're all looking for a retirement job, we're all gonna go into education and start teaching how to do this for that next generation of retail media folks.
[00:44:34] Drew Cashmore: Yeah, agreed.
[00:44:35] Casey Golden: So we've got. I think every episode on The Retail Razor emphasizes increase your tech budget, start deploying solutions, push to production, get something out the door. But winners and fizzler, if you had to place a bet on one retail media trend that you feel will dominate this year, 2025, what would it be?
And then, you know, [00:45:00] on the flip side. What do you thinks overhyped?
[00:45:02] Drew Cashmore: I think work workflow automation is a key priority in our space. Not only because it's necessary for operational efficiency, but it's necessary for creating a competitive offering. If you're doing everything off spreadsheets and emails, you are not creating an a media offering that can compete with Meta and Google and Amazon, and Walmart.
And, and I say that knowing that, that even in those businesses, that there's inefficiencies and, and a lot of tech debt and, and certainly things aren't flowing as efficiently as they could be. But you need to invest in, in finding operational efficiencies and, and making it easier for your team to both operate and then scale the business.
I think the things that I am less excited about now just because I think they're ill understood are things like CTV and in-store and digital at home, and [00:46:00] what has become kind of these core growth pillars for retail media. What seems to be happening in our space is that people are clamoring for quote unquote new demand for, for places where monies are sitting that can then just flow into the individual retailer.
Or they're clamoring for new inventory sources because they think that by just opening up a new channel, they are gonna get more money. And we're in doing that, making it actually much harder for advertisers to buy because you're not creating that workflow automation, you're not unifying those tools.
And so you're just , adding another layer of complexity every time you open up something new in, in today's construct. And so I, I believe that there are legs for CTV and digital at home, and, and we've seen much stronger momentum in, in other markets outside of the US. But I don't, I think there's a lot of work we need to do in order to accelerate those things before just saying, [00:47:00] open up your inventory and data.
[00:47:02] Casey Golden: You know, I think you just, you just brought something up that is a huge cultural divide between retail and media, is that a new store equaled more, more money, but a new channel does not equal more money
[00:47:18] Ricardo Belmar: right
[00:47:19] Drew Cashmore: Yeah. Yeah
[00:47:19] Casey Golden: and so
[00:47:20] Ricardo Belmar: more work and more investment.
[00:47:21] Retail Media is a Different Business Model
[00:47:21] Casey Golden: over the last few years, we have just been shutting down so many stores and it, it used to be how we made money is open up a new store, open up a new store. We've got opening up a thousand new stores equals this amount of money.
But that's not necessarily how the digital marketing works and these channels.
And I bet, that is a, that is a. It's a very interesting thing we could double click on.
[00:47:45] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[00:47:46] Drew Cashmore: and and coming from the lens of a SaaS business, it is really fascinating and I've been running up against this a lot. Is that comparison, the comparison of either they, exactly to your point, they know that model, the [00:48:00] CFO at a retailer understands the base economics of retail in, in minute detail.
When you introduce this new thing, the every model breaks and, and it looks ridiculous. The, so, I was looking at a we, we were value, value selling the other day, and I was looking at the CapEx requirement for relative to the CapEx that the retailer did in totality and then the contribution to the operating income. And it was something like for 0.5% of your annual CapEx, you can build a business that is gonna be worth 10% of your operating income in five years.
That is so crazy that they're afraid of it and that that it, it is just too audacious to believe that it's possibly true, but it is true because we've seen it in Amazon and Walmart and Home Depot and CVS and so.
[00:48:52] Ricardo Belmar: yeah.
[00:48:53] Casey Golden: It is, you know, we've I think all of, I still can, I still include myself on the brand side even though I've been on [00:49:00] the tech side for a very long time. We're used to making decisions without data.
[00:49:06] Ricardo Belmar: yeah.
[00:49:06] Casey Golden: 20 years I made decisions without data. You get a very good gut, like your gut rules, a lot of the decisions that you make, and a lot of times, like every, you just feel comfortable. You know what to expect for no rhyme or reason other than it's worked in the past over and over and over again. And it's driven my business and I feel comfortable making these decisions without data. And then you show me a brand all this data and it can, these numbers are ridiculous. And it's scary 'cause you have to let go of this trust that. You didn't, you didn't have before. It hasn't driven your career. It hasn't grown the business over the last 25 years. And there is this like comfort of shooting from your hip [00:50:00] regardless of the data. I don't like purple.
Cut it.
I don't want this.
Cut it.
Close the store, like...
[00:50:06] Conclusion and Final Thoughts
[00:50:06] Drew Cashmore: on, this, on this point. I'm still very bullish about retail media. I still think there's a lot of room to grow. I think there's certainly much more effort we need to take by way of investment and, and creating competitive offerings. But, what I will say at a more macro level within retail is, I think of retail media as a catalyst for overall change within their organizations.
That you're asking a retailer to do something, exactly, to your point, Casey, that they're very uncomfortable with that. This is a new business model. It's a new way of operating. You're changing the dynamic of the relationship between your advertisers or suppliers and and your merchants. But it's a necessary change, and it's not going to be just retail media.
There are many things that I'm not smart enough to, to consider at this point that are gonna come out of, out of this change in [00:51:00] retail. But it's a catalyst for what becomes a future model within retail overall. And that's why I think it's really, really important for retailers to take this seriously. That the change is gonna drive their future growth overall.
[00:51:13] Ricardo Belmar: Is that sort of a, a way of saying that this is the next big shift in digital advertising and it's the retailer's opportunity in a sense almost to, to potentially lose if they miss out?
[00:51:25] Drew Cashmore: Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it
[00:51:26] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[00:51:28] Casey Golden: Well, Drew, this has been a fantastic conversation on retail media. Where it came from, where it's headed, and I know everyone listening has had to have some incredible takeaways. I know I have. Rewind, take notes. You've shared some really great gems here.
[00:51:45] Ricardo Belmar: Yep. And I think as everybody who follows the show knows, we, we could easily keep talking about this for hours and hours, and Casey probably has to, find a way to virtually kick me under the table to get us to stop talking retail media because it's one of my favorite topics. But I have to say thank you so much for [00:52:00] coming on the show. Joining us. I really give us a, a very different perspective and unique vision on, on what's happening. I really appreciate that. Thank you so much for being here with us.
[00:52:10] Drew Cashmore: Thank you for having me. This is a lot of fun.
[00:52:12] Casey Golden: Well, our first episode of the new season is officially wrapped.
Thank you, Drew.
[00:52:17] Show Close
[00:52:24] Casey Golden: If you enjoyed our show, please consider giving us a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Goodpods. Remember to smash that subscribe button in your favorite podcast player or like. and subscribe to our YouTube channel, so you don't miss a minute.
And a big thank you to our amazing Goodpods listeners for helping us consistently rise to the top three spots in the Indie Management, Indie Marketing podcast charts with every episode.
I'm your co-host, Casey Golden.
[00:52:52] Ricardo Belmar: Please follow us and share your feedback at Retail Razor on LinkedIn, Bluesky, Threads, and Instagram. And if you wanna [00:53:00] preview each episode right in your email inbox, subscribe to our Substack newsletter for highlights and full episode transcripts.
I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.
[00:53:08] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us.
[00:53:09] Ricardo Belmar: Until next time, keep cutting through the clutter and stay sharp.
This is The Retail Razor Show.