Embracing Human Pride: Navigating Leadership & Technology in a Changing World
S5E3 From Retail Pride to Human Pride: Navigating Leadership and Connection with Ron Thurston
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Unlocking Human Pride: Thriving in the Age of AI
In the ever-evolving landscape of work, both leadership and technology are reshaping how we interact, lead, and find meaning. For episode 3 in season 5 of The Retail Razor Show, we welcomed back a long-time friend of the show, industry legend, Ron Thurston, to shine a light on these dynamics.
Joining our hosts, Ricardo Belmar and Casey Golden, Ron shared insights that both inspire and challenge traditional paradigms. Here in this newsletter issue we bring you a glimpse into the thought-provoking discussion and the valuable takeaways for anyone looking to navigate today’s complex work environment in retail and beyond!
A big shout out to our friends at The SKUpe Newsletter for supporting this podcast episode! Curated by industry experts, the SKUpe delivers clear, trustworthy insights on what's working for small and mid-size retailers today. Join 20,000 retail decision makers who rely on it to stay sharp and ahead of the game!
Welcome Back, Ron Thurston!
Ron Thurston's return to the show felt like catching up with an old friend. His journey from leading stores at iconic retail brands including Tory Burch, Bonobos, Apple, Gap, and Intermix, to focusing on human potential resonates deeply.
His new, just released #1 best-selling book, "HUMAN PRIDE: Optimizing Your Human Potential in a Digital Job Market," explores optimizing your human potential in a tech-driven world to excel in the future of work, a timely conversation as industries grapple with AI’s growing influence.
The Importance of Human Connection in Retail
Connecting through human experience has been a cornerstone of Ron’s discussions, wherever his speaking engagements take him, although AI often dominates conference conversations.
While technology optimizes work, Ron emphasizes that human relationships remain the core of any industry.
It’s about leveraging AI to enhance, not replace, human potential—a vital message in retail and beyond.
Optimizing Human Potential in a Tech-Driven World
Ron's narrative challenges us to reflect on our personal and professional journeys. Highlighting job seekers and leadership, he stresses that skills and intense communication remain indispensable in the AI age.
It’s a call to be diligent about self-reflection, identifying non-negotiables, and standing firm on personal values to optimize our unique contributions.
Defining and Standing by Non-Negotiables in Job Search
In the job search, Ron urges candidates to define and adhere to their non-negotiables.
The value of clear communication and understanding one's strengths supersedes fitting into predefined molds.
Asking the right questions during interviews is key to finding roles aligned with personal values—a crucial strategy for long-term career satisfaction.
The Role of Empathy and Curiosity in Leadership
Leadership today requires empathy and curiosity, especially when leading multi-generational teams as has become the norm in retail organizations. It’s about supporting employees to deliver their best performance by engaging with them on a personal level and understanding their needs and preferences.
Effective leadership transcends titles, focusing instead on unleashing each individual's potential.
Challenges in Modern Hiring Practices
The conversation delved into the hurdles of modern hiring, where reliance on technology can overshadow human interaction. Ron critiques the over-reliance on automated processes, emphasizing the necessity to balance technology with human connection for recruitment processes that truly reflect candidates' capabilities and true fit for any role.
The Future of Work: Balancing Technology and Human Connection
Emphasizing a delicate balance, Ron argues for integrating technology with human insight to foster a conducive work environment. By harnessing tech efficiencies to enhance employee interaction and engagement, organizations can thrive in both human connectivity and technological advancement.
Adapting to Office Culture
Even as remote tools proliferate, Ron appreciates the collaborative spirit fostered by office culture, citing its advantages in creating silent, powerful workplace connections. However, intentionality in digital engagement can bridge physical gaps, urging leaders to cultivate environments where every team member can thrive.
Leadership with Empathy and Emotional Intelligence, But Without Titles
“Leading without a titles” underscores a future where leadership prioritizes individual growth and contribution.
By unlocking team members' potential through empathetic and emotionally intelligent strategies, leaders ensure a thriving work culture where titles take a backseat to empowerment and growth.
…and that’s just the beginning of your most important personal journey!
The episode wrapped with a profound message:
the greatest advantage lies in understanding oneself, staying true to core values, and bringing humanity to work.
As technology advances, Ron’s insights remind us to keep human pride at the forefront, recognizing our intrinsic potential and fostering environments that celebrate individual and collective pride.
Ron’s words serve as both a reminder and a catalyst, urging us to navigate the complex waters of modern work environments with
empathy,
curiosity, and
an unwavering commitment to our human potentials.
The challenges of today are just the beginnings of tomorrow's opportunities!
Embrace them with pride!
If you’re ready to experience the complete journey with Ron, be sure and listen to (or watch) the full episode of The Retail Razor Show!
Until next time, keep cutting through the clutter and stay sharp!
Sincerely,
Ricardo Belmar & Casey Golden
Co-hosts of The Retail Razor Show
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Full Episode Transcript
S5E3 Unlocking Human Pride: Thriving in the Age of AI
[00:00:00] The SKUpe Newsletter
[00:00:00]
[00:00:01] Ricardo Belmar: Running a retail business means making nonstop decisions - inventory, staffing, marketing, tech. The SKUpe is the weekly newsletter designed to help you make smarter calls faster.
[00:00:12] Curated by industry experts, the SKUpe delivers clear, trustworthy insights on what's working for small and mid-size retailers today.
[00:00:19] Join 20,000 retail decision makers who rely on it to stay sharp and ahead of the game.
[00:00:25] Subscribe at t h e s k u p e dot c o. That's t h e s k u p e dot c o.
[00:00:32] And now let's get to the show!
[00:00:34] Show Intro
[00:00:54] Ricardo Belmar: Hello, and welcome to season five, episode three of The Retail Razor Show, the [00:01:00] original podcast in the ever-growing Retail Razor Podcast Network, where we cut through the clutter to give you sharp insights on what's happening in retail today and tomorrow. I'm Ricardo Belmar.
[00:01:10] Casey Golden: And I'm Casey Golden. Welcome Retail Razor fans to retail's favorite podcast and the only retail podcast in the top 10 all time indie management podcast charts on Goodpods. Where we bring you the practical knowledge you need to stay ahead In the retail world. It's a show for product junkies, commerce technologists, retail leaders, and everyone else in retail and retail tech alike.
[00:01:35] Ricardo Belmar: So before we jump into today's topic, I just have one important request for our listeners. If you like this episode, please go onto Apple Podcast, Spotify, or Goodpods, and give us a five star rating and drop a review. No matter how brief, even if, just to let us know you really loved it, or if you want, just let us know what you wish we'd talk about next time.
[00:01:54] Either way, it really helps us grow the show and reach more people. And as you'll see for today's episode, it's [00:02:00] really all about people.
[00:02:01] Casey Golden: I know you said one request, but let's not leave out our YouTube audience. If you're watching us on YouTube and like the show, please hit that subscribe button, smash that bell, and if you haven't already, give us a like, drop us a comment. We wanna hear from you.
[00:02:17] Ricardo Belmar: Yep. And with that said, Casey, I hope listeners and viewers are ready for this episode 'cause we have something very different than our usual take, to share this time. And while our topic is unique and special, our guest today isn't new to the show. In fact, he's appeared on the show, I think, including this episode, no less than 10 times. Plus he's been on three episodes in season one of our Blade to Greatness show. So definitely not a stranger to The Retail Razor.
[00:02:44] Casey Golden: That's right, and it's for good reason. There are few people that we talk to that have a message and a mission that resonates with so many in our audience as well as so many in the broader retail industry. Above all, he's just an amazing human that we [00:03:00] love talking to and adore.
[00:03:01] Ricardo Belmar: And thinking about our themes this season, we are really zeroing in on the human connection today and focusing on how everyone in this industry and beyond, for that matter, can become the best version of themselves and become a truly empathetic and unstoppable leader. This is something special, I think listeners are gonna keep coming back to listen or, or watch, like you said before, this episode over and over because there's just so much you can take away from it to help in your own career and growth as a person, and ability to just take pride in what you do.
[00:03:30] So today we will be speaking with none other than Ron Thurston, someone who it's fair to say is inspiring human-centered leadership in the future of work, whether it's in retail or any other industry for that matter, because people are what should be the most important to any business leader.
[00:03:47] Casey Golden: And those that don't recognize Ron or maybe are new to the show and although we're going to give a quick rundown on his amazing background, if you haven't heard our past episodes with Ron, check out [00:04:00] our first two episodes in season one where we talked about the future of frontline retail store teams .Episode five, in season one, also, where we looked at the role of academics in retail. Then again in season two, episode 10, and our special Top Retail Experts, NRF summary. And episode 12 where we hosted Shop Talk, Top Retail Expert summary, and of course our Retail Transformers episode with Ron in season three episode five.
[00:04:36] All of those will really get you caught up on all of Ron's history.
[00:04:40] Ricardo Belmar: And then there's last season's episode three where we focused on retail recruiting with Ron, plus the three episodes of our Blade to Greatness I mentioned earlier that that feature him too. So yeah, if you were keeping score, I think that makes 10, including this one.
[00:04:55] Casey Golden: So if we sum up what Ron's been up to, we could say he is a [00:05:00]bestselling author, keynote speaker, and bold voice in the movement to reimagine leadership in a world transformed by technology. His new book, Human Pride, Optimizing Your Human Potential in a Digital Job Market, was just released May of 2025, delivers a powerful roadmap for standing out, staying relevant, and thriving in the future of work.
[00:05:25] Ricardo Belmar: With over 30 years of executive experience leading teams at iconic brands like Apple Gap, West Elm, Tory Burch, Bonobos and San Laurent, Ron knows how to build winning cultures that drive performance. His first book, Retail Pride, from 2020 became a career defining guide for thousands of industry professionals, helping them reclaim confidence and purpose in their work.
[00:05:48] Casey Golden: As the creator and host of the Retail in America Tour and podcast, Ron spent over a year traveling across 30 states in an Airstream to spotlight the real stories and remarkable [00:06:00] people shaping retail's future. Today he serves on the advisory boards of retail tech leaders like Ometria and Yoobic, helping brands integrate AI and digital tools without losing sight of what matters most - people.
[00:06:16] Ricardo Belmar: Ron is a sought after keynote speaker who brings energy, insight and inspiration to global conferences, C-suite offsites, and corporate events. His message resonates across industries, and your greatest competitive advantage is human. And that brings us to today's conversation.
[00:06:34] Casey Golden: So let's not wait any longer after that amazing intro and get right into our conversation with Ron Thurston, which I hope our audience will find as inspiring as we do.
[00:06:51] Welcome Back, Ron Thurston!
[00:06:51] Casey Golden: Welcome back to the show, Ron. Always an incredible pleasure to have you here with us.
[00:06:57] Ron Thurston: Oh, thank you. Thank you, Casey. I, I love [00:07:00] coming back when I have new projects, new ideas, and you guys have been so gracious and so kind to me over the last five years. I very much appreciate it.
[00:07:10] Ricardo Belmar: Well, Ron, I have to say, I mean, you, you've certainly been a, a key guest on the show, and not only were you as, guest on our first two episodes ever on the show, where we talked about frontline store teams, if you remember. But I think you're, you may be the only guest who's been on at least one episode every season of this show.
[00:07:28] So I think that's pretty noteworthy to highlight there. We, we may have to have a special jacket or, or sweatshirt or something, or a hat maybe to commemorate the, the moment
[00:07:36] Ron Thurston: ready. Let's do it. Let's do it. Ha. Happy to support you. Whatever, whatever that looks like. So thank you.
[00:07:42] Casey Golden: Thank you.
[00:07:43] Discussing Ron's New Book: Human Pride
[00:07:43] Casey Golden: I know we, and I suspect many of our listeners and viewers have been eagerly waiting for your new book, so I can't wait to dive into this conversation and learn a bit more.
[00:07:53]
[00:07:53] Ron Thurston: you. Yeah. And, and timing of this. So today is May 5th, so the
[00:07:58] book launches tomorrow on [00:08:00] May 6th,
[00:08:00] Ricardo Belmar: Fantastic.
[00:08:01] Ron Thurston: on Amazon, all over the world. So I'm, this is perfect timing and again, very much appreciate this.
[00:08:08] Ricardo Belmar: Excellent, excellent. Well, Ron, , you've gone from leading stores, across so many amazing retail brands, you published your first book and we talked about in previous episodes, Retail Pride. Like I mentioned all the way back to those first two episodes of the show. We talked about frontline store teams to episode you were in in our season three, where we talked about the book and of course your, your epic tour across the country in an Airstream in the Retail in America podcast.
[00:08:32] And now we're, we're gonna talk about Human Pride and the new book. So why don't you tell us a little bit about this whole journey and how you came to this point in writing Human Pride.
[00:08:43] Ron Thurston: Yeah. Thank you so much, Ricardo. The.
[00:08:46] The Importance of Human Connection in Retail
[00:08:50] Ron Thurston: It's funny when you say that the first guest, and I spoke about frontline teams
[00:08:50] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:50] Ron Thurston: I still speak about frontline teams every day because when I think about optimizing your human potential, and I think [00:09:00] about ways and the importance of how we connect as humans as colleagues, you know, as customers, as clients, all of it, it's so rooted in how we build relationships. And, you know, all, all three of us have the opportunity to go to so many industry conferences. And I'm lucky enough that I get to, to work with the NRF and be one of the voices of NRF for 2025. And I work with the NRF Foundation and college students and get to be on stage and, and through the last couple of years, as we all sometimes joke about this, that AI has become the kind of catch phrase of industry conferences.
[00:09:42] How are you using AI?
[00:09:44] What are you doing to optimize it?
[00:09:47] How has it infiltrated itself into your work?
[00:09:49] And I continue to have this conversation about, yes, but how is that supporting the growth of our industry? And most [00:10:00] importantly, how is that supporting building human connection and optimizing yourself?
[00:10:04] And the further along that I've become in this journey, I've said I need to write my next book about optimizing your human potential in a world that has become more and more dictated by algorithms and by and by, in many cases, AI and AI efficiency.
[00:10:24] Optimizing Human Potential in a Tech-Driven World
[00:10:33] Ron Thurston: And, so the, this is certainly for that frontline, but this book is a much broader perspective because it's much of it is about job seekers and much of it is about leadership, both of whom, both of those topics are incredibly human centric and, and require a level of intense relationship building and intense communication skills that AI can't replace. And so while I love to talk about technology and you talk about technology on the show, there's an opposite end of this conversation [00:11:00] that needs to happen that is rooted in optimizing your human potential and that the, book was really one kind of, I started the beginning of 20 24 of last year. And just continue to think like, how, how is the world evolving?
[00:11:17] How is, how are relationships changing? How is how we work? What is, what does work look like today? And what will work look like in the future?
[00:11:27] And the need to always take it back to who we are, why we add value, why it's certainly in a world where today we're seeing kind of headcount plateaus and, and in many cases, headcount reduction, headcount reduction and, and challenges in job seeking require us to be actually at our best.
[00:11:51] It requires us to be even more tuned into what's important even more connected to communication skills and, and all the [00:12:00] things that make us great. So that, that, that was really where it started. And it has turned into something that I'm, that I'm really proud of. That is both for our retail industry, but but also for every industry because every industry has challenges related to these same topics.
[00:12:18] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, so true.
[00:12:20] Ron Thurston: Yeah. And, and I thanks Casey, and I believe that this conversation is only escalating right now. You know, more and more is being said about this, and we haven't reached the point where we say, yes, that's important, but, and I'm, as I have been for the front Line, I really want to be the voice that raises my hand and says, I understand all of this around technology, but we have so much work to do be our best, you know, and discover our own greatest potential. And I, and particularly because I work with so many people who are both in a job search and, [00:13:00] and, and college, kids who are now beginning their careers, they're at a very interesting time to begin their career. That is both intensely human and intensely rooted in technology. And you have to actually be good at both.
[00:13:15] You don't get to choose today.
[00:13:17] Casey Golden: it's moving extremely fast.
[00:13:19] Ron Thurston: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:21] It is.
[00:13:21] Casey Golden: you talk about building a career around storytelling and self-worth. What's one story from your own journey that's tested your own human pride the most?
[00:13:32] Ron Thurston: Yeah. Uh, so interesting. I would, you know, say, and Ricardo, you mentioned in the beginning, I, I've had the pleasure, the joy, the, the opportunity to lead some incredible brands like Intermix and, Saint Laurent and Bonobos and Tory and Apple and, you know, these are incredible, iconic brands, but, and there was a point where I said, I. what I [00:14:00] do. And I was a very good head of stores because I'm, I'm so connected to, driving business through human connection, which is the ultimate expression of retail. But I, I, I think the discovering my own worth was saying, how can I take this conversation and build it beyond me leading one brand?
[00:14:23] And so that's really what Retail Pride gave me the confidence to say, how do I take this outta my own? How do I go out and travel the country and have all these conversations? How do I, build a business or a speaker business coaching and consulting around optimizing your human potential? And that is, and particularly, you know, I, Retail Pride came out when I was 55. I'm 60 now. And so how do you then take this and say, well, I'm at a, an interesting chapter in my life where I've now uncovered another [00:15:00] new chapter later on in your career. And, and I think for many people my age, there's this winding down, what am I going to do? I've kind of had my career like what's next?
[00:15:12] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm.
[00:15:12] Ron Thurston: And I, ' cause I get a, a lot of those inbound messages and I'm like, you, you're at, you have the ultimate ability now to share all of the hard work, the lessons that you've learned, the pain, the joy, all of it. Share it with the world because people want to hear you.
[00:15:31] There's, there's power in experience and that's, that's what really built it for me.
[00:15:37] Casey Golden: Yeah.
[00:15:37] Defining and Standing by Non-Negotiables in Job Search
[00:15:37] Casey Golden: You mentioned in your book you talk about non-negotiables. Typically as a job candidate, we keep these tucked away, so I was wondering if you could just kind of touch on non-negotiables and how can a job candidate not only define their non-negotiables, but actually stand by them in [00:16:00] practice in such a competitive job market?
[00:16:02] Ron Thurston: yeah, yeah. I, I love this question, Casey, because you're right. I, when things are difficult or the job search becomes long, you, we, I think all of us have a tendency to then just like shape shift into whatever the company wants us to be. Who like, all of a sudden what we're good at is different on the outside than what is on the inside.
[00:16:30] We think differently. We start to perform a different way. Certainly in retail, and I, I'm guilty of this, you dress a different way, you look a different way. You fit into the brand. And what has happened is through this kind of level setting of roles and skills is that we actually, in order to deliver the best performance, we have to be very clear on who we are, what are our skills, what are our competencies, and [00:17:00] where will we deliver the best performance? And that it's okay to say no. It's okay to maybe turn down a job offer that isn't as aligned of your skillset. It's okay to say ask more questions and interviews. This is the piece where I get a lot of inbound that would say, Hey, I took this job six months ago. I am miserable, what do I do? And so I start to dig in and say, well, tell me about the questions you asked in the beginning, during the interview process.
[00:17:31] Are you first clear on what you are good at? What are, what are your strengths? What are your core values? let's start there. And then what questions did you ask in the interview? And often candidates don't ask the questions that really dig into what's going to optimize their own performance or that are aligned to their values.
[00:17:54] I, often, you know, kind of the NRF foundation students, [00:18:00] they're primarily female. And so when I speak to the NRF clubs, I'll say, you know, so 90% female, is it important to you that there are women in senior leadership roles in the companies that you work for? All, they all raised their hand, "yes." I said, so ask that question in interview. Ask the question of how many women have moved into a senior leadership
[00:18:24] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm.
[00:18:24] Ron Thurston: role in this company? the person interviewing you can't answer that question, this may be not the right company for you.
[00:18:31] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[00:18:32] Ron Thurston: actually there's, we don't have any... Who's on the board? Tell me
[00:18:36] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:36] Ron Thurston: the women that are on the board of directors of this company.
[00:18:40] So whatever.
[00:18:41] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm.
[00:18:41] Ron Thurston: me, that's expressing your core values. It's expressing and telling the company, telling the hiring manager, this is what's important to me. It's important to showcase that this career path is clear for me. And there's such power in being [00:19:00] so optimized that you then choose companies and roles and opportunities that are aligned to who you are through your performance becomes unstoppable in, in that case. But it's a skill that I believe and it's a power that is often missing from candidates.
[00:19:20] Casey Golden: Yeah, I mean it's, I can imagine that with Chat GPT so much is being dictated or on how, what you need to do to fit this job description.
[00:19:32] Ron Thurston: Yeah.
[00:19:33] Casey Golden: But I do have to say one thing that the retail industry does have. We do have a lot of people with very strong of purpose and very, and and their own point of view,
[00:19:49] And we definitely have the opportunity to lean in, especially in retail. Because nobody's saying, oh, I'm gonna go work in retail. I'm gonna get rich, I'm gonna make a billion dollars [00:20:00]next one. We, everybody's here for different reasons. It's not just about it's money has almost like the least amount of why anybody is in retail or going into the space.
[00:20:12] I feel there are a few people at the top, but there is a, a strong sense of purpose and strong sense of self.
[00:20:19] Ron Thurston: Yep.
[00:20:19] Casey Golden: But I can imagine that a lot of, college grads or people who have been in the workforce for a very long time and were coming back or making a shift after many years at a company be a little bit more trepidatious in having, sharing those strong opinions or purpose.
[00:20:38] Ron Thurston: Yeah, I, and I agree with you, Casey, so that, I think that's where, when I think about optimizing your human potential, it's exactly that. It's owning your own experience, strengths, confidence. storytelling abilities, all of that, like, do your own work. You know, Human Pride [00:21:00] is what I would call more of a book about self-reflection.
[00:21:02] There are more activities of before you start this chapter,
[00:21:05] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:06] Ron Thurston: questions to ask yourself. Once you've read this chapter, here's some activities around self-reflection or work that you can do, because none of this, is someone, is something that someone's going to give you. You have to do the work yourself and the confidence that you go into an interview knowing how clear you are, what you want, where you want to go and asking smart questions, you become a candidate that's quite memorable and sometimes it comes through, you know, you have to work your some way through the algorithm to get there.
[00:21:41] That it, that's the reality today. But once you're in it, what are you going to do to take full advantage of that opportunity? And we all know when your, when your personal values and are aligned with the work that you do and the opportunities in front of you. You know, we talk a [00:22:00] lot about high turnover rates in retail. We talk a lot about, people trying to actually get out of this industry on the store side. And what I see that is, but then that creates the greatest opportunities that have ever existed here to be your best, to move your career faster. so it's, I I look at it in a more of a positive, but, but more of a self ownership perspective. Versus this is what the industry's doing to me. This is what I'm going to contribute to the industry
[00:22:32] Casey Golden: That's great.
[00:22:33] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
[00:22:36] Ron Thurston: It's all mindset.
[00:22:37] Ricardo Belmar: It is, it is. That's so, that's so true. Well, I wanna go back to, to something you started say earlier about how we're in this world where human connection is so important, but we're also surrounded by digital tools and technologies at pretty much every, every turn and every aspect of this, of this work journey in, in a sense.
[00:22:54] The Role of Empathy and Curiosity in Leadership
[00:22:54] Ricardo Belmar: So when you think about this round, what, what are the human qualities you think are the most valuable [00:23:00] for recruiters to look for in candidates? And we kinda look at it from that perspective.
[00:23:03] Ron Thurston: Yeah. And so if I, if I'm a recruiter hiring in a leadership role,
[00:23:08] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm.
[00:23:09] Ron Thurston: and I think about the workforce today, that is in, in many cases, three or four generations of people on my team
[00:23:18] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:19] Ron Thurston: So I'm looking for leaders who, are incredibly curious, who can
[00:23:24] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm.
[00:23:24] Ron Thurston: ask questions of their team about how you can help them deliver their best performance. And so I think we, that's one of 'em too, I would say, empathy and, and conversational skills and emotional intelligence. And so leading, leading a multi-generational workforce is about empathy and curiosity. And so you can sit and have conversations with everyone on your team and say,
[00:23:52] Based on your experience, what's the best way for me to communicate to you?
[00:23:57] How would you like our conversations? How [00:24:00] would you like me to support you? You know,
[00:24:03] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:04] Ron Thurston: roles, our job is to support We are in service to our team.
[00:24:08] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:09] Ron Thurston: that, for me, that's a mindset
[00:24:11] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Right.
[00:24:12] Ron Thurston: The mindset of a leader, in my opinion, should be, how can I be in best service to my team and optimize their performance?
[00:24:21] And that starts with curiosity and empathy where you say, how would you like our touch base? How often would you like our touch bases? When in what forum would you like? know, via Zoom, would you like them to be in person? How would you like them to show up? How, what about annual reviews?
[00:24:39] What about goal setting? And every person on your team is going to want something different.
[00:24:45] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:46] Ron Thurston: this idea of, of the past, and I've certainly worked for and led brands where everyone has to be treated exactly the same way. Everyone gets asked the exact same questions in the interviews. [00:25:00] Everyone's performance review is the same, everyone's training is the same. And I just think those days are over. I think training, again, you ask, say, well what's the, how can I optimize your experience as a new employee,
[00:25:13] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:13] Ron Thurston: like a buddy? Would you like someone to sit with you? Would you like to study on your own? Would you like me to pay you hours to study from home? Where, versus sitting in a stock room so there's so many ways that we can make this a better experience for our teams if we just do it in the most human way
[00:25:34] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:35] Ron Thurston: them in front of a computer and not just have them watch videos because someone that's 20 and someone that's 60 may want completely different things
[00:25:44] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Right.
[00:25:45] Ron Thurston: Just joined your team.
[00:25:46] Ricardo Belmar: Right.
[00:25:47] Ron Thurston: And that I is, I don't hear that conversation enough. I don't hear people really thinking in, in a way that using technology to your best possible [00:26:00] way to support growth and development on
[00:26:03] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:03] Ron Thurston: team, but in a way that's incredibly human and curious and, and empathetic.
[00:26:09] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah, I think so sometimes you see a lot of examples where the application of the technologies being used to try to create almost like a normalized minimum level or, or standard, rather than use the technology to do what you're really saying, which is understand what each individual needs to help them get to that maximum optimum point.
[00:26:30] And you may have to apply differently for each one, but, but in a sense, but what I, I'll always surprise is missed, is that, that, that's why we have the technology, right? It's not so that you can just create one thing that you apply evenly everywhere. It's so that you can have the ability to apply it differently where needed.
[00:26:46] Ron Thurston: Correct. Exactly right.
[00:26:48] Challenges in Modern Hiring Practices
[00:26:49] Ron Thurston: And I, I think I shared the story with you guys earlier, but when I was recently, at FIT in New York, speaking to students and their concerns were really around the, the job [00:27:00] interview process. So this
[00:27:01] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm.
[00:27:01] Ron Thurston: one good example. Like often brands, many fashion brands today are doing first interviews via AI.
[00:27:07] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:07] Ron Thurston: getting question, you're on camera, there are questions popping up on the screen, you need to answer them on the fly and they're watching you. So you make it through that. The next one might be Zoom, the next conversation might be on the phone with someone. The next conversations could be a panel interview.
[00:27:23] The next one could be a one-on-one with an executive. You, as a candidate have to optimize your own performance to be really good at all of
[00:27:32] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:33] Ron Thurston: You don't get to choose. so, but I would challenge the brand and say, what are the skills that you are looking for? And why are you trying to force people to be good at things that they're not good,
[00:27:46] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:46] Ron Thurston: at if you're hiring for
[00:27:49] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah,
[00:27:51] Ron Thurston: correct, they don't need to be good
[00:27:52] Ricardo Belmar: yeah, yeah.
[00:27:53] Ron Thurston: screening people that
[00:27:54] Ricardo Belmar: Based on that, yeah.
[00:27:55] Ron Thurston: think there's a self-reflection moment for brands
[00:27:58] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:59] Ron Thurston: [00:28:00] why is our turnover so high?
[00:28:01] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:02] Ron Thurston: losing people at record rates? What are, what are they doing? Where are they going? Like, how can we actually change our hiring, training, development culture to fit what the candidate wants, not the other way around. That's how you get the best people, that's very self-reflective. That's very much a mindset of the company is in service. Leaders of a company are in service to the team. does the team need from you? You know, if you're doing employee surveys, surveys and the results come back poor or mediocre. This isn't about blaming the people who took the survey, which I see. This is
[00:28:43] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. What happened?
[00:28:45] Ron Thurston: to do as a leadership team
[00:28:46] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:47] Ron Thurston: what are we going to do and how honest are we going to be with ourselves because our people don't like working here. And I, I, I have the, sometimes the gift in those scenarios to go in and help [00:29:00] brands fix that and say, and work specifically with the leadership team and say, well, let's go through the results and what do you need to do differently or be honest about in order to change the culture of the company. And that's, that, that can be emotional work because your people will always tell you the truth.
[00:29:21] Casey Golden: Yeah, I mean, I've always put people at the forefront, like people then product, you know, and I just couldn't imagine myself ever having first rounds with AI. I feel like every single hire, it's, it's your first goal is to get the right people on the bus, and then it's to make sure everybody's in the right seat. And if you can get that right, it's magical.
[00:29:50] Ron Thurston: Yeah.
[00:29:51] Casey Golden: The, I mean, the ability to be able to have everybody on board in the right seat in that purpose and [00:30:00] skillset. I think that playing musical chairs is not necessarily the answer on removing that human connection. But I understand that people need to, a lot of companies need to move a lot of people through a funnel, get 'em through a system, get through those hiring needs and whatnot. but it is, do you feel like the job market today is just, it's rigged against the human connection as more of this technology is being deployed that
[00:30:27] Ron Thurston: It does feel that way. Casey, well, because, you know, I, I get a lot of kind of messages about candidates because, I have a big network, so we will say, oh, it looks like you're connected these people. Can you help me? And I'll say, well, tell me about your experience so far. And often they have not even made it to an in-person interview yet. And they're incredible candidates and they have so much to offer and so much leadership experience, yet they can't get in front of a person. And that [00:31:00] technologies preventing has put up a wall of their ability to showcase who they really are. And yes, I think Casey, to your question, it I think we have optimized the speed of, of hu of hiring against the candidate. And we, again, if we're, we're at a time right now, middle of 2025, where brands, many brands have said, we're gonna hold on hiring or we're going to maybe even reduce our headcount.
[00:31:28] Casey Golden: Right,
[00:31:29] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:30] Ron Thurston: heard, I was at a conference speaking last week in London for about 400 leaders that work in marketing, retail marketing. And I heard it actually several times. Brands said, we're going back to our COVID playbook. We're gonna run
[00:31:46] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm,
[00:31:46] Ron Thurston: our Covid playbook. And I'd never heard that. I didn't know we
[00:31:49] Ricardo Belmar: hmm.
[00:31:50] Ron Thurston: a playbook.
[00:31:51] Ricardo Belmar: Right.
[00:31:51] Ron Thurston: is it what that now they've gotta go back and say, do we need to do layoffs? Do we need to reduce head count?
[00:31:58] Do we need to [00:32:00] reduce store openings? Do we need to reduce hours of operation? All the things we did in 20
[00:32:06] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:07] Ron Thurston: Brands have this mindset now of we need to go back that,
[00:32:11] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm.
[00:32:11] Ron Thurston: back and do maybe some of what we did in that playbook. And my response is, from a people standpoint is then every hire now has to be probably going to have to do multiple jobs.
[00:32:26] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:27] Ron Thurston: to have a wider skillset. They're going to have to be even more human connected that. Then slow down the hiring process, maybe remove all the technology and then go back. Maybe the playbook is go back to the way that we used to hire, which is phone screenings or group interviews or all the things that we do so well. I think this actually has forced us to go back and do hiring differently. It, it need if,
[00:32:56] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm.
[00:32:56] Ron Thurston: brands haven't recognized that it's, I think it's time.
[00:32:59] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. [00:33:00] It it, do you see Ron in this process, or are brands sort of falling into a trap where they're, they're just kind of hiring resumes versus actually attracting people into these roles because either because of how they're applying to technology or because to your point, they're thinking, I have to go back to this covid era mentality.
[00:33:20] Ron Thurston: Yeah, I think they're hiring resumes with certain brands without, without putting the work in
[00:33:27] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:27] Ron Thurston: right person. And it does, it requires work. Interviewing done well is really hard. And actually, I think really fun because I love to meet strangers all day. That's why I could, why I worked in retail. But if you, but at the same time, candidates have also figured out I can drop the job description into chat GPT and say, what are the, you know, primary competencies that they're looking for and change the language on their resume so that there's
[00:33:55] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:55] Ron Thurston: both sides of the table
[00:33:57] Ricardo Belmar: Right, right.
[00:33:58] Ron Thurston: are actually [00:34:00] very. I would say lucrative to finding the right people. So yes, I think
[00:34:04] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:04] Ron Thurston: taken the human out of this experience and we need to put that back to change how people think about work and maybe more importantly how they think about the job search experience,
[00:34:16] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:34:17] Ron Thurston: hard right now,
[00:34:18] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:34:19] Ron Thurston: I get to speak to so many people and incredible candidates are not having good experiences.
[00:34:25] Ricardo Belmar: Is is part of the issue how, maybe it's on the brand side, how they're trying to scale their ability to either look at more resumes? Because in some ways, I imagine from the recruiter's side, the perceived benefit of why I'm using all these tools is because it lets me ingest more potential candidates, apply some kind of filtering to that in the hopes that I'm gonna end up with the best set that I wanna actually talk to.
[00:34:48] That is it turning out that way when, when it, when you try to do this at scale.
[00:34:52] Ron Thurston: Yeah, I think it's that exactly the goal, Ricardo, but it's not, it doesn't
[00:34:56] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:34:57] Ron Thurston: it will not work because people will [00:35:00] get left on the sidelines and never
[00:35:02] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:35:05] Ron Thurston: have been part of the mix.
[00:35:06] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah,
[00:35:07] Ron Thurston: it's leaving people behind
[00:35:09] Ricardo Belmar: yeah.
[00:35:09] Ron Thurston: That shouldn't be.
[00:35:10] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[00:35:11] The Future of Work: Balancing Technology and Human Connection
[00:35:12] Ricardo Belmar: How, how does, I'll throw out a term that, you know, hustle culture that has been talked about so much in the last few years, and again, maybe especially since Covid. You know, I, I always think of every direct to consumer brand that rose through Covid. Every one of those founders talked about how they had to hustle to get the visit, their brand awareness, and how to get out there and, and succeed.
[00:35:31] And I'm starting to see now almost a counter to that. And in areas where people are talking about maybe that's not the best way to do things is to, is to think in that mentality. But what, what's your take on that in this whole, as it applies here in this topic?
[00:35:45] Ron Thurston: Yeah, I would, I would say it's exactly that of like, where it's a recognition first at the company level of what do, what do people, how are they experiencing work at this company? What are our turnover rates? What are [00:36:00] our adoption rates of new technology? What are, what is the customer saying? So think about NPS, think about the, all the, all the KPIs we use in retail. You put, if you put all that data together, you can say, how is our employee base, experiencing their work here? And the data will point you in certain directions, but then it's, you know, the hustle culture would tell you to then just what's all right. They can just move them in, move them, move them out fast, move them in fast, think differently, and. And yes, maybe in startup mode, that's true.
[00:36:35] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:36] Ron Thurston: in the majority of companies who are of of decent size that are continuing to grow, it's, I believe it's slowing down, optimizing the potential of your team. Thinking about clear career paths, thinking about training and development opportunities, of really asking questions about where does the team, what do they need, where do they want to [00:37:00] go? How can we support them? And that's all so not hustle related in my opinion. It's that,
[00:37:07] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[00:37:07] Ron Thurston: you know, slow down, have a conversation, listen to your team. And that's every industry. And that that is done with intention.
[00:37:17] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:18] Ron Thurston: takes time. That because someone wants a 10 minute touch base that turns into an hour, someone wants an hour touch base, you know, that is 15 minutes.
[00:37:27] And I think you can't predict what
[00:37:30] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[00:37:31] Ron Thurston: be, where it's going to go. And that's just, it's what I love about work, and, and about the future of work is that it has to be this combination of connected human experiences, supported through the efficiency of great technology. That is the future of work.
[00:37:51] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[00:37:52] Ron Thurston: leave one side of this on the table.
[00:37:54] Ricardo Belmar: right.
[00:37:55] Ron Thurston: part is the hard part.
[00:37:56] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:37:57] Ron Thurston: And every day people come to work [00:38:00] with things that have happened at home and things that happened over the weekend, and you that, that's just who we are. And accept
[00:38:07] Ricardo Belmar: Right.
[00:38:08] Ron Thurston: and move it, move forward.
[00:38:11] Casey Golden: Speaking of career paths, I'm throwing a wild card in here.
[00:38:15] Career Longevity and Brand Affinity in Retail
[00:38:15] Casey Golden: In, in retail brand affinity, uh, runs pretty deep.
[00:38:20] Ron Thurston: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:21] Casey Golden: Is it still the case that we can have a 10 or 20 year career at one company? I. Is that still? Because starting a new job every two years is exhausting, right? Like it is exhausting. You get in, you learn everything, and then it's oh, gotta switch to a new place. That was kind of maybe maybe the last 10 years, perhaps. Do you see? Because it's so hard and so difficult to get through that door. People just want to like drill in some stakes and say, I'm not leaving. I'm gonna chase after the brands or [00:39:00] the, the companies that I have a brand affinity for that I believe in that I wanna help and I'm digging my heels in.
[00:39:06] Ron Thurston: Yeah, it's so interesting, Casey, because you're right. I think that that was a pretty common mindset. And then we started to see you're right, this kind of two year, three year turn, like no one stays for very long a year in
[00:39:20] Casey Golden: Yeah. 3% raise if you stay 30% raise if you leave, I mean,
[00:39:25] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Right, right.
[00:39:28] Ron Thurston: of that's, you know, still true.
[00:39:29] And there's also a mindset maybe of a younger generation of like, how fast am I getting promoted?
[00:39:34] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:34] Ron Thurston: if I leave, I can get promoted. You
[00:39:36] Ricardo Belmar: Right.
[00:39:37] Ron Thurston: from manager to senior manager
[00:39:38] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:39] Ron Thurston: I can keep moving, what I would challenge everyone to do is to say, well, what, what are again, kind of my core values?
[00:39:47] Where am I adding the greatest contribution? And if this is an industry that I love. Are you a real student of the industry or are you a student of the brand you work for?
[00:39:58] Casey Golden: mm-hmm.
[00:39:59] Ron Thurston: And I think [00:40:00] sometimes it's picking your head up and saying, I, I love this industry. I'm going to continue to follow what other brands are doing, what maybe friends and colleagues and events.
[00:40:11] What are they saying about working there? And then choose the brands that best align with that. I don't, you're right, every two years becomes certainly exhausting, But at five you could say, this leading ultimately toward where I want to go and what I want to do? And senior, we know that the CEO level brands, now that that's become a two year job. so then ev once, once you start going against your own numbers, the pressure's on. And we see it in the news every day.
[00:40:44] Casey Golden: Right.
[00:40:45] Ron Thurston: so every time there's a new CEO change, there's a culture change, there's a leadership, there's a
[00:40:49] Ricardo Belmar: Right.
[00:40:50] Ron Thurston: change, there's a board change. And so I think this mindset of you have to be nimble on your feet, know what you want to do, where you want to go, listen [00:41:00] to what the brands are doing, and then you have to make the best choice for yourself. And I don't know that people are doing enough of that work because those are the questions I ask.
[00:41:12] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm
[00:41:12] Ron Thurston: you love most about the job you have today? What, what part of your work? Do you love the most? And is it about your work or is it about the brand? And often it's about the people that they work most closely
[00:41:27] Ricardo Belmar: mm-hmm.
[00:41:27] Ron Thurston: they really enjoy
[00:41:28] Ricardo Belmar: Right. Yeah,
[00:41:30] Ron Thurston: is it the work or is it the people? Because if it's the
[00:41:32] Ricardo Belmar: yeah,
[00:41:33] Ron Thurston: people are gonna leave
[00:41:35] Ricardo Belmar: yeah. And then you're left with the work.
[00:41:37] Ron Thurston: you are left with the work and maybe you new the new people. You don't like that much. And so there's this sense of you have to be confident in enough, in yourself enough to say, I have the lev, a level of human pride where I understand the value I can add to any company and I can take this skillset and apply it somewhere else.
[00:41:56] Navigating the Fast-Paced Industry
[00:42:03] Ron Thurston: And, and because things move so fast, you have to be really clear and I think quick on your feet to make
[00:42:04] Casey Golden: Yeah,
[00:42:05] Ron Thurston: even at the correct, just imagine, know, as we all know, creative, even creative director change in a luxury brand complete. You have an
[00:42:14] Ricardo Belmar: Could be a completely different direction. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:42:18] Ron Thurston: and that then maybe that's not something that aligns with your values like this.
[00:42:23] This is an industry that moves at such a pace that you've gotta be really engaged with it.
[00:42:31] Casey Golden: Well, thankfully we used to have to find a job in our own backyard, but now our dream jobs are just a, a click away no matter where you lived. The old, old rules of live where you work stay in your industry, wait for permission, don't really apply anymore. Remote work, cross border collaboration asynchronous teams have, have kind of cracked worldwide.
[00:42:57] Just
[00:42:58] Ron Thurston: Yeah.
[00:42:59] Casey Golden: so the [00:43:00] question now is, can you work? Isn't, can you work globally? It's, it's just really how intentionally are you approaching it.
[00:43:09] Ron Thurston: Exactly. Right. And, and that's it. So if you're very clear on, the value you add, you could say, I can add this value in maybe multiple different industries, in different parts of the world. to be the, the level of confidence that you can then build on top of to expand your skillset. And maybe some of it is gig work, maybe some of it is more remote, some, there's so many different opportunities here.
[00:43:36] Adapting to Office Culture
[00:43:36] Ron Thurston: And yes, there are also brands on the flip side that said everyone's in the office five days a week. And, but there can be value in that of saying, you know what, then if I have to be in the office. Five days a week, I'm gonna be the best version of what showing up in the office means. you know, I felt like I, I had [00:44:00] success in that way.
[00:44:01] First one in the office, maybe it, maybe that's the whole hustle culture, but that was the time. Last one to leave
[00:44:06] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:07] Ron Thurston: you are always contributing, you're adding value. People see you, they know what you're working on. You're cross department collaborations, improve all of that. So whatever the situation is, say, how can I then optimize this experience right now?
[00:44:22] Is it, is it virtual? Is it international? Is it five days in the office? All three of those can exist at the same time, and you can be the best version of what that happens to be of that experience at that time.
[00:44:39] Broadening Job Search Perspectives
[00:44:39] Ron Thurston: And I think we sometimes, candidates are too linear, of I only want the, I only wanna make this much money.
[00:44:46] I only wanna do this. I wanna report to this kind of person. And then their job search takes two years.
[00:44:54] I encourage people of open your mind, think differently about this work, and learn how to [00:45:00] tell your story that is related to these choices, because that's what great candidates do.
[00:45:07] Casey Golden: I just, a congratulations on LinkedIn to a gal in retail and you could just see that like same job title over and over and over again. And she's on, promote this woman. And then I saw like New York to a promotion in London to a promotion in Dubai, and I'm like... Yes!
[00:45:30] Ron Thurston: Yeah.
[00:45:30] Casey Golden: That's awesome.
[00:45:32] So many people are willing to pack that suitcase,
[00:45:35] Ron Thurston: Yeah,
[00:45:36] Casey Golden: you know? And and it's just was able to make leaps and bounds, up there. But it was just like, I was like looking at it, I'm like, oh, that's a great move for you. And then I was looking, I'm like, oh my goodness. Like you needed a cheerleader in there for a moment, you know, to get through that next step.
[00:45:55] And I think it's just great to be able to see people taking [00:46:00] those jumps and taking those leaps and more brands saying, I'm gonna take somebody from a different country and move them over here if they're game. a lot of times there was, these rumors. I believe the rumors are true, so it may not be a rumor, but if you don't live in New York, you're not getting a job in New York unless you're super senior.
[00:46:20] Ron Thurston: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:46:21] Casey Golden: It's don't even apply for a job. You need to move first.
[00:46:25] Ron Thurston: Yeah. And I think in, in a world where every dollar is scrutinized,
[00:46:31] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm.
[00:46:31] Ron Thurston: right. You know, and there, then there's risk and there's their family involved and kids and
[00:46:36] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:37] Ron Thurston: really complex moving someone like that. So yes, you, because if you're already there and you can start in two weeks, sure. That puts you to the top of the list.
[00:46:45] But I think it's being firm and saying, actually, you know, I need, I need a month in order for this to be settled. And this is, this is the cost, but you know, the job, the jobs are everywhere.
[00:46:59] Casey Golden: Yeah.
[00:46:59] Ron Thurston: then [00:47:00] choosing, you know, how you wanna work in that world, how different that is. I, I moved to New York for LA for LA to New York for one of those jobs, Casey, and then, stayed for, for the next decade, because you're right, that worked, it worked for me. But, you know, now I live in Miami and the work becomes very different
[00:47:19] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:19] Ron Thurston: and travel becomes different. And so the, the opportunities can show up everywhere. But the, the joy of finding the, that aligned to your core values and to what, to your strengths that's an endless search.
[00:47:34] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[00:47:34] Casey Golden: matter where it's.
[00:47:36] Ron Thurston: Doesn't matter.
[00:47:37] Ricardo Belmar: Right, right, right. Yeah.
[00:47:40] Leadership with Empathy and Emotional Intelligence, But Without Titles
[00:47:43] Ricardo Belmar: So let, let's talk a little bit more about leadership, which you cover in the book , as well. A good focus on something you referred to as leading without titles. Tell us a little more about why you think that's the future of leadership. And, and I guess the question I have along with that is this where you've mentioned , empathy and empathetic leadership [00:48:00] before in this discussion, is that one of the more important and valuable pieces of leadership?
[00:48:05] Ron Thurston: yeah. I, I really believe that it is
[00:48:08] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:48:09] Ron Thurston: that great leaders very much lean into strong emotional intelligence, and this is a, a big part of it, but what great leaders do is find that potential in everyone on their team,
[00:48:23] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:48:24] Ron Thurston: everyone may not think they have the ability to lead.
[00:48:28] They're maybe they're shy, they're
[00:48:30] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:48:31] Ron Thurston: they think that they don't have the ability to lead others. It's not a skill they've had. And if you as a leader then say, you know what? Ricardo, I'm gonna give you this one special project. You're gonna do just one special project for me and I want to see how you do this.
[00:48:48] And then you come back and it's phenomenal. And I said, so I'd like for you then to share that with the rest of the team, this work that you did. And so leaders find those opportunities to let [00:49:00] others shine.
[00:49:00] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[00:49:01] Ron Thurston: Leadership is never about you. It's not about your title. It's, and it's not even about the title of the people around you.
[00:49:07] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:49:08] Ron Thurston: their light, finding their joy and their pride in their work. Your job is to figure that out. And if you do that as a leader, people will follow you.
[00:49:18] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:49:18] Ron Thurston: will work harder. They will, you ask for something then when you need it, they deliver. There's this reciprocal level of commitment to success when leaders lead like that. And if the, if the titles block you from finding that on the team, then the titles are doing a disservice
[00:49:40] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:49:42] Ron Thurston: whatever, the, is it a department, is it a store? Is it a company? Don't let the title inhibit the strength of the rest of the team.
[00:49:49] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:49:51] Ron Thurston: that there's a reporting. Like I, I can only, if I'm a vp I can only speak to the directors.
[00:49:55] No,
[00:49:56] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm. Yeah.
[00:49:56] Ron Thurston: to whoever you want.
[00:49:58] Ricardo Belmar: Right, right. [00:50:00] Mm-hmm.
[00:50:00] Ron Thurston: I, I've seen that kind of old school mentality of no, you need to have a touch base with your boss before and your boss needs to tell me what you want.
[00:50:08] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:50:09] Ron Thurston: I just don't think none of this applies anymore.
[00:50:12] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[00:50:13] Ron Thurston: younger people joining organizations, like the kind of the rules that we followed, like I talk about training and onboarding and career paths, all the rules, they're not interested in this. They're not
[00:50:24] Ricardo Belmar: Right.
[00:50:25] Ron Thurston: in all of your like old school. You know, ways that companies have operated
[00:50:30] Ricardo Belmar: All that sort of forced hierarchy.
[00:50:32] Ron Thurston: it's forced hierarchy, it's forced you know, and, and this kind of waiting to get promoted mindset doesn't apply.
[00:50:40] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:50:40] Ron Thurston: and we, we have to let that go. We have to just say, let's find the way to optimize our people in, in a way that's right for them. And that's how you retain teams
[00:50:53] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[00:50:54] Ron Thurston: they, they have access to senior leadership. They have
[00:50:56] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:50:57] Ron Thurston: to learning and development that's not [00:51:00] on, a list of things I can learn at this job, and I
[00:51:02] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:03] Ron Thurston: to learn these until I get the next job. Why?
[00:51:06] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Right, right.
[00:51:08] Ron Thurston: maybe you don't have the budget to promote me.
[00:51:10] Okay, so let me do some of this work. Let me show you what I can do without waiting for the title or the money. I just
[00:51:18] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:18] Ron Thurston: the, that's the future of work
[00:51:20] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[00:51:21] The Future of Work and Technology
[00:51:21] Ron Thurston: And, and how do you use technology to support all of
[00:51:24] Ricardo Belmar: Right.
[00:51:24] Ron Thurston: How do you speed up, how do you use technology to speed up work in order to give you, as a leader the opportunity to have more time to spend with your team?
[00:51:35] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:36] Ron Thurston: the, you know, Chat GPT should be writing things for you so that you can say, you know what, I have four hours now more in my week.
[00:51:42] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. And spend it with your team.
[00:51:44] Ron Thurston: You know what? I'm gonna spend 15 minutes with every person that works on my team, every week.
[00:51:50] They might be very uncomfortable, but that's how you learn.
[00:51:54] That's how you grow.
[00:51:55] And the team's gonna be like, wow, I've never had so much time with Ron. That's, it's
[00:51:59] Ricardo Belmar: Right, [00:52:00] right.
[00:52:00] Ron Thurston: what employee retention is.
[00:52:02] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. It builds inspiration.
[00:52:04] In some ways, right, that it helps inspire those people in the team to want to do more if that's what you're, if that's what it's all about. And it, it's not just about telling people what to do, right? It's inspiring them to want to do more of what they're doing and to grow in that capacity, 'cause that's what leads to other roles and other challenges.
[00:52:21] Ron Thurston: Yeah,
[00:52:22] Casey Golden: Yeah.
[00:52:23] Ron Thurston: tell you one quick story, Ricardo, regarding that. So when I was in London last week, I took a tour of a flagship Lush store. So we know Lush is like the bath bombs and it's a, they're London based. It's a three story it's a three story flagship on Oxford Street. It's a massive business.
[00:52:39] There's a spa on the lower level and it's was full of customers. And I spent I was introduced to the store manager by Ian Scott and we're on this retail safari. So I'm speaking to the store manager and he was talking about majority of their employees were like 16 to 21.
[00:52:54] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm.
[00:52:55] Ron Thurston: almost all of 'em like every six months 'cause they're students. And, [00:53:00] he was very inspiring, and what I said to him is, but think about the fact that they've had this incredible experience with you as probably their first or second job. You've now set the standard for what their next job is.
[00:53:16] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:53:17] Ron Thurston: he was like, I've never thought of it about it like that, but that, that's, that's leadership.
[00:53:22] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[00:53:22] Ron Thurston: oh, you know, Casey went on to her next job. She was here six months and, and will never remember you again. Actually, leaders become memorable development points in people's careers if you do that well. So he's sending hundreds of people out into the world, having worked in this store, having learned what great leadership is. Then, the, the bar, the pride of those people has just been risen and
[00:53:49] Casey Golden: and it gives you such great joy. loved being somebody's first job.
[00:53:57] Ron Thurston: Yeah.
[00:53:57] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm. Uhhuh?
[00:53:58] Ron Thurston: Yeah,
[00:53:59] Casey Golden: [00:54:00] I loved that 400 employees rolling in and out. I took great pride in the fact that like, I am getting to set that standard to get you to , like work and to build your confidence and I'm gonna send you out into the world, my little children.
[00:54:16] Ron Thurston: yeah,
[00:54:20] Casey Golden: I mean, it is one of those things and I, I just you know, I, anybody who's in that position should just be incredibly celebrated because it is needed. That isn't the experience. I hate to think that people's first job is dream crushing,
[00:54:39] Ron Thurston: Yeah.
[00:54:39] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm. Yeah.
[00:54:41] Casey Golden: Because that wasn't necessarily my experience.
[00:54:43] But I find, oh, as I talk to more and more and more people, it is less common that they're like, oh, my first job was terrible, or whatever, you know? And it, it follows, it's toxic in so many ways. But you know, when you were speaking about, [00:55:00] you know, flattening these organizations, you could say that used to be one of the, the greatest benefits of working in the office is building these silent relationships.
[00:55:11] When you're walking past somebody in the hallway, it's a smile, it's a look, it's a glance to, until you got to the point where you felt comfortable to just pop your head in their office and say like, Hey, can I like grab you for 15 minutes to run something by you?
[00:55:24] Ron Thurston: Yeah.
[00:55:26] Casey Golden: For doing that on Zoom or working digitally or remotely with that seems a lot more formal where everybody's faces are in a, in a call.
[00:55:37] Ron Thurston: Yeah.
[00:55:38] Casey Golden: There isn't that type of engagement or that relation, that invisible relationship building that we, we can get in that office.
[00:55:46] Ron Thurston: Yeah.
[00:55:48] Casey Golden: I am, you know, as much as many people would, you know, hate me to say it, I am pro, like going back to the office a few times a week. I thought it was wonderful. And I think that [00:56:00] having flattening out an organization or moving away from those, those titles, the personal connection to experience the authority or activate that quiet leadership would be a lot easier of a transition than digitally. What, how do companies like activate quiet leadership?
[00:56:25] Ron Thurston: Yeah, so interesting. I, I think it requires much more intention to do it and, and much more thought. So how do you create a level of empathy with people that you don't, that you're not sitting in front of? I think it's, it's learning how to get really good at every part of the technology. And so if, if it is large group settings on Zoom, then how are you your most human?
[00:56:53] You know, how do you try to do cameras on? How do you have active participation? How do you use the [00:57:00] breakout rooms? Like there's, there's so many ways you can actually create connection with technology. And same, if I'm a leader and the majority of my team is remote, I. Then I wanna make sure that we don't miss touch bases or we ramp them up and have them more often,
[00:57:15] Ricardo Belmar: Right?
[00:57:16] Ron Thurston: maybe they're shorter. And, but more intentional. So I think you have to just work harder at it,
[00:57:21] Casey Golden: Yeah.
[00:57:22] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:57:22] Ron Thurston: then the casual, you're right. Stop by the office or can I sit with you at the table at lunch? If that can't happen, how can we build a relationship? You know? And at the same time, understanding the budget restraints.
[00:57:35] We can't have big company offsites or the things we can't do, but there are ways to do it if you really put some work behind it. I, I
[00:57:45] Casey Golden: Yeah.
[00:57:45] Ron Thurston: people off the hook
[00:57:46] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[00:57:47] Ron Thurston: anymore.
[00:57:48] Casey Golden: Great.
[00:57:49] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. We, we, we've always added in our organization because we're also fully remote things like the, the virtual coffee chat every week where there's just one rule in, in the call. It's that, we're not talking about [00:58:00] work related things. It's just literally, we, we got together for coffee in the office and we just happened to be doing it over Teams and what does anybody wanna talk about?
[00:58:06] And those end up being, the best moments where you get to know everyone in the same way you would if you were just running into them in the hallway.
[00:58:12] Ron Thurston: Right.
[00:58:14] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[00:58:15] Ron Thurston: Yeah. And, and some in those scenarios, I think it's also recognizing, you know, that some people are more comfortable sharing things that happen at home and
[00:58:23] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:58:24] Ron Thurston: they aren't.
[00:58:25] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[00:58:26] Ron Thurston: so it's also like getting this sense of, well, I noticed, you know, on our, on these coffee meetings, you don't participate a lot.
[00:58:32] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[00:58:33] Ron Thurston: You know, and is there a forum that's more comfortable for you?
[00:58:36] Ricardo Belmar: Right.
[00:58:37] Ron Thurston: And so there's just, you know, that's what empathetic and curious
[00:58:41] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, yeah,
[00:58:44] Ron Thurston: in and see how someone's actually experiencing you. Like what
[00:58:50] Ricardo Belmar: yeah.
[00:58:50] Ron Thurston: mean,
[00:58:51] Ricardo Belmar: Right, right.
[00:58:52] Ron Thurston: know, things like 360 and all of this, there, there's a lot, all some value, some, [00:59:00] some controversy in all of these tools, but ultimately nothing replaces an honest conversation.
[00:59:06] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah, no, that's, that's very true. That's very true. Yeah.
[00:59:11] Balancing Technology and Human Connection
[00:59:20] Ricardo Belmar: So I, I guess lemme bring one thing back to, 'cause we've gone back and forth in this a bit throughout the conversation around where technology fits into all of these factors particularly when we're talking about, the recruitment process for job candidates, for, for leaders, and everyone at some point, and you kind of started out mentioning this at the beginning, that there's an expectation, you, you really have to master the technology now more so than before, as much as the human connection aspect of it.
[00:59:38] So if you take a step back and look at the technology and how it's interacting with people in the industry. I want to ask the question, are, are we winning? Meaning is the technology making this better or is it creating more challenges for us? Maybe the, instead of more challenges, it's new challenges that we're having to overcome because it's making us busier versus [01:00:00] more efficient or creating hurdles to productivity instead of making us more productive, which is what the promise of the technology is.
[01:00:07] How do you see that right now?
[01:00:10] Ron Thurston: yeah. I see it as. kind of test and learn, world that we're living in of well, if I tried this trechnology if it was, , Chat GPT or one of the other many solutions that are out there, if let's test and see how this reduces work and time and efficiency and quality of work. And if, if the test equates to we save two hours of time, and, and maybe the work of somebody else, what are you doing with that time?
[01:00:41] Ricardo Belmar: Right.
[01:00:42] Ron Thurston: the only, the only way that this becomes more efficient and more important is that we then recognize what's available to us to, to become more human. And it's easy to then sit at your desk and just play with technology all day.
[01:00:57] And I would say if that saved you two hours,
[01:00:59] Ricardo Belmar: [01:01:00] Mm-hmm.
[01:01:00] Ron Thurston: extra two hours you need to use in a way that maybe you didn't ever do before.
[01:01:05] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[01:01:05] Ron Thurston: Or it frees up time to do something you never had time to do before or frees up money that you didn't use before. So all of this is, is incredibly important, but it's, so the efficiency is only important if it's letting you become more human
[01:01:21] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[01:01:22] Ron Thurston: and whatever that looks like for, for your work and everyone is different.
[01:01:25] But I'll just even reflect on this marketing conference last week. There is a lot of conference or a lot of talk about, language in, in emails and segmentation and, and how AI can certainly help you with all of these things, but it doesn't replace, marketing at the end of the day is about customer connection and relationships, and maybe you then implement different programs that puts you in front of the customer in a different way.
[01:01:50] Maybe there's a loyalty program that you couldn't ever have implemented before because it took time and money. Maybe now because your emails are all created with [01:02:00] AI, you can actually start a loyalty program. So it's this,
[01:02:03] Ricardo Belmar: Right, right.
[01:02:05] Ron Thurston: The efficiency of your job. And if you're not going to add headcount,
[01:02:09] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[01:02:09] Ron Thurston: let's talk about how to make do more with the same number of
[01:02:13] Ricardo Belmar: Right. Yeah.
[01:02:15] Ron Thurston: And that, that's a, for me, that's a win on both sides.
[01:02:18] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[01:02:19] Casey Golden: When I look back, on Mondays, I typically have essentially half the day that I just dedicate to my own. I set my day, make sure everything's set from the weekend, and then I essentially go into a learning and experimental mode. Like this is the chance. Monday mornings I just, or Monday afternoons, I just kind of sit and explore, I tinker whatnot.
[01:02:45] When I look back, there is no way I would've been able to fit in even two hours. To learn anything new or to play with AI or to read type of like [01:03:00] technical documentation or to watch a YouTube video not happening.
[01:03:05] Ron Thurston: Yeah.
[01:03:06] Casey Golden: And now being in the position that I am now, I'm like, the amount I have learned and been able to operationalize or implement
[01:03:16] Ron Thurston: Yeah.
[01:03:17] Casey Golden: just puts me where I'm supposed to be is, you know, this huge ROI.
[01:03:23] Ron Thurston: Yeah.
[01:03:24] Casey Golden: But when I think of what my life used to look like, there was no time for that.
[01:03:30] Ron Thurston: Yeah.
[01:03:31] Casey Golden: It was fire drill after fire drill after fire drill. You know, like
[01:03:35] Ron Thurston: Right.
[01:03:36] Casey Golden: as soon as you wa those elevator doors open it.
[01:03:43] Ron Thurston: definitely all, all been there. Yeah. And I think that, you know, specifically, if we go back to retail and stores, there's no shortage of new technology. We've all been to NRF and seen, know, the
[01:03:55] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[01:03:56] Ron Thurston: of, of new ideas
[01:03:57] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[01:03:58] Ron Thurston: there. Is technology being [01:04:00] adopted just because you want to adopt new technology. But, you know, every often, every dollar that's spent on new technology is reduced. By payroll. And so there there's this sense of well, what are you actually investing in? Where are you putting your money? What's
[01:04:16] Casey Golden: Mm-hmm.
[01:04:17] Ron Thurston: to the customer is that what's going to happen to the customer experience in these scenarios?
[01:04:22] So technology without adoption,
[01:04:25] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[01:04:26] Ron Thurston: a need for it just becomes money not well spent.
[01:04:30] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[01:04:30] Ron Thurston: we're gonna put an extra million dollars back into store payroll this year and implement some new training and development tools and put some specialists in place, all of a sudden the teams happier and the customer experience just got better.
[01:04:45] And it didn't
[01:04:46] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[01:04:47] Ron Thurston: except writing a check for a million dollars. And you can do that pretty easily at, at scale.
[01:04:52] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[01:04:53] Ron Thurston: And so I'm, I'm always pushing back of the human versus the technology and saying, is this a payroll challenge? Is this a [01:05:00] leadership
[01:05:00] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[01:05:01] Ron Thurston: challenge? Is this technology challenge? Don't make an assumption about any of these
[01:05:06] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.
[01:05:07] Ron Thurston: asked people
[01:05:08] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. What are you solving for?
[01:05:10] Ron Thurston: What are you solving for? And my experience, most of the time, the store doesn't need more technology. They need more payroll. And so
[01:05:19] Ricardo Belmar: Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. That's true. That's very true.
[01:05:26] Final Thoughts and Takeaways
[01:05:29] Ricardo Belmar: Well, Ron, this has been such inspiring and conversation. It's, I guess that's true almost every time we have on the show, we always walk away inspired in, in, in some way. So, before we wrap up, I think there's one final question I I want to ask you here.
[01:05:40] If every CEO or hiring manager or, or frankly job seeker that, that's listening to this could take away one truth from human pride, what would you want it to be?
[01:05:51] Ron Thurston: Hmm. One truth. Yeah, I, I would say that your optimal, your greatest [01:06:00] advantage and your greatest potential is discovered through who you are, your core values, the work that you do, the contributions that you make, that are the most human, up with, with pride. And I say that, and it's the word that I think Is in my language, my vocabulary, the most overused, but I say it with intention is that when, when you are proud of your work and you're proud of what the companies are doing that you work for and you're proud of your team, then your work changes. And that word "pride" shows up in so many different ways.
[01:06:38] And I believe that's why, I have two books with that word in the title because I believe so strongly in it as an emotional driver to success and motivation and commitment to things.
[01:06:50] When you're proud, you're committed, you are, when you're proud, you show up with integrity. You do the right thing, you bring people [01:07:00] along because you're proud of, of the work and you are, you want people, you know, like Casey, what you said, I love when it was people's first jobs.
[01:07:07] Me too. 'cause I wanted them to be proud that they had a boss that would do the right thing or ask them their opinion. You know, things
[01:07:15] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[01:07:16] Ron Thurston: so simple. I believe that this kind of level of thinking differently about your work, but most importantly, about your own self-development to your own self-reflection and the work you put in, changes the dynamic of the workforce and changes who you are.
[01:07:32] And I, and I, I hope that's the biggest takeaway is that this is about work for, work on yourself first and foremost.
[01:07:41] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[01:07:43] Casey Golden: Ron, thank you so much for this discussion. I know it's well timed and I hope our audience is inspired and just a little bit more proud of themselves and, you're the kick they needed to get that confidence up a little bit and just [01:08:00] go shine. always look forward to you being on the show. We not only get so many incredible takeaways from you, but it's also, I always so fascinating to hear your story and learn about your journey and how you're using that to that experience to help others in the industry.
[01:08:17] I think you are the number one person everybody would wanna work for. I mean, how could you not take that inspiration to say " Hmm, what would Ron do? "
[01:08:25] Ron Thurston: I'll take that. Thank You know, now I get to do it on stages and
[01:08:30] Casey Golden: Yes.
[01:08:31] Ron Thurston: with
[01:08:31] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, there you go. Yeah.
[01:08:33] Ron Thurston: that gives me great joy. 'cause it's a lot of like I'm giving people that first job experience of like,
[01:08:39] Ricardo Belmar: Right. Yeah.
[01:08:41] Ron Thurston: The way you've always done it doesn't mean it's the way you have to always do
[01:08:44] Ricardo Belmar: it
[01:08:44] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[01:08:45] Ron Thurston: more simple than you think.
[01:08:47] Casey Golden: And I think.
[01:08:47] Ron Thurston: get
[01:08:48] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, exactly.
[01:08:48] Casey Golden: is there. I think a lot of people's intuition is there
[01:08:52] Ron Thurston: Yeah.
[01:08:52] Casey Golden: and a lot of this technology is, direction is maybe taking us out of what that first intuition [01:09:00] is to be like. I. I am just gonna follow these directions 'cause this is what we're doing now, but it just doesn't maybe feel right. Or there's something that you could, you really feel like, hmm, I need to add another step in there.
[01:09:11] Ron Thurston: Mm-hmm.
[01:09:12] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.
[01:09:13] Casey Golden: to really just be able to say, you know what? I'm going to put the other step in there. This is really important for the job and taking those extra steps. So, if anybody in our audience is booking, please get Ron on every stage.
[01:09:26] Ricardo Belmar: That's right. Absolutely. Absolutely. You won't regret it. Absolutely.
[01:09:30] Ron Thurston: on Amazon,
[01:09:32] Ricardo Belmar: That's right. That's right. That's right. By the time you're hearing this, then Human Pride should be available, so definitely rush out and get your copy right away. It'll be well worth the read. Exactly. Link would. Link would be in the show notes.
[01:09:45] Well, Ron, thank you so much for joining us today. I mean, I know I'm already looking forward to the next visit.
[01:09:51] Ron Thurston: Amazing. So am I. You guys are awesome. Thank you. Thanks Casey and Ricardo.
[01:09:55] Casey Golden: Thank you.
[01:09:56] Ricardo Belmar: Thank you.
[01:09:58] Show Close
[01:10:03] Casey Golden: If you enjoyed our show, we have a simple ask for you. Please consider giving us a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Good pods. Remember to smash that subscribe button on your favorite podcast player or like, and subscribe on our YouTube channel so you don't miss an episode.
[01:10:22] As always, a huge thank you to our amazing Goodpods listeners for helping us consistently rise to the top three spots in the indie management and indie marketing podcast charts with every episode.
[01:10:35] I'm Casey Golden.
[01:10:36] Ricardo Belmar: Please follow us and share your feedback at Retail Razor on LinkedIn, Bluesky, Threads, and Instagram.
[01:10:43] And if you wanna preview highlights and transcripts from each episode right in your email inbox, please subscribe to our Substack newsletter.
[01:10:50] I'm Ricardo Belmar.
[01:10:51] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us.
[01:10:53] Ricardo Belmar: Until next time, keep cutting through the clutter and stay sharp.
[01:10:56] This is The Retail Razor Show.
[01:10:59]